[CIE]

Originally Posted by KC8

Despite some of the undeniably big operational issues in some of the newly introduced ND services, I still believe the ND programme is a good idea and with some tweaks could really see an improvement for most bus users. I set out below the changes that I think would be worthwhile and have tried not to increase the overall number of buses in the fleet given the financial pressures facing DB. So here goes.

Blanch and Lucan Services
Probably the biggest success stories of ND. Lucan services much more direct and Chap(e)lizod has a better service with fewer buses thanks to properly designed timetables

Better service? This has to be the only instance in the world where less service equals "better"; certainly it's the case that increased service is being touted by the proponents of ND to be what is "better", but this is not the case in Chapelizod. It also puts an inordinate burden on bus routes that are travelling beyond Lucan to provide the local service through Chapelizod, as well as the sole bus route operating through Lucan Village. There is also no way to travel by bus between the areas that the 25A/B serves and Chapelizod, now.

You really think that the new/old 26 is an improvement? DB can't even figure out the right way to configure the route. The idea to run through Ballyfermot was a good one, but running westward via Kennelsfort Road onto the N4 towards (at least) Liffey Valley Centre should have been a part of it. Either that or have it run via Ballyfermot to/from Dodsborough, thus freeing the number "25" to become the Adamstown bus instead of the 25B.

Originally Posted by KC8

39A has also seen huge improvements for most people living in Blanch. Route 39 could be improved while also saving at least two buses. Send it direct from Clonsilla down the Clonsilla Road to Bla(n)ch Village (road is now two-way). The only link that is lost is between Bla(n)ch Village and Hartstown / Blanch Centre. While this might discommode some people it will benefit most and offer big efficiencies. Urbus maintains a link between the village and centre

Running the 39 via the old route 39A, while cutting off Blanchardstown Village from the Square? You need to define how it will "benefit most" when there apparently has been no demand for such a bus for a very long time, and those that have not taken to the car most likely have been using the train as the most direct link to the city centre. The 39 has always operated via Sheepmoor from the time it was extended there from Coolmine Cross, and not via the 39A's old Clonsilla Road route. Also, I don't see Urbus running via Clonsilla or Hartstown/Huntstown.

(In the past, I had envisioned a route 71 in place of the old 39A running to/from Dunboyne via Clonsilla, Ongar, and Summerseat/Clonee. But that's the past, and with the train going that way now, that wouldn't work out too well, perhaps.)

Originally Posted by KC8

There is no easy solution for the Mulhuddurt / Corduff / Ballycoolin area (Route 38/A). I’m not that familiar with the area to know if Route 40D could be uses more to help. In the absence of this being a viable solution, I suggest Routes 38/A terminate at the Screen Cinema and keep existing timetables. This should at least make the services 95% reliable. Route 38B should be extended to cover 38A pm peak departures.

If nothing's broken, no need to attempt to fix it.

Route 40D needs to have its own route number. It's quite distinct from Route 40. With all the disused non-suffixed route numbers currently available, I'm not sure why it doesn't.

Originally Posted by KC8

Stillorgan Services
46A seems to be running well.

145 reliability has improved and I suspect just a small further adjustment is all that is needed to make it reliable 95% of the time. Cancel the Herbert Road diversion just south of Bray

You can't just cancel something willy-nilly that there is demand for. (Well I suppose you can if you're DB, but then it'll lead to disaster and confusion.)

Originally Posted by KC8

Finglas & Ballyfermot Services
Running time on Route 40 is clearly a big problem. Four additional buses are required here to hopefully improve reliability.

A more radical solution here is to remove Route 40 from Kilmainham and James’s Street. Arguably, it is already well serviced with routes 13 / 123 and Luas. Route 40 could then adopt the old 78 routing from Ballyfermot to town making journeys considerably shorter. This could offer the triple win of increased frequencies, increased reliability and a reduction in resources allocated to the route.

Ballymun & Clondalkin Services
Running time on Route 13 is clearly a big problem. Four additional buses are required here to hopefully improve reliability

Tallaght Services
I believe there is some room for improvement here.

Route 27: Reliability is the issue here. I believe this can be solved by changing the Edenmore terminus to Clare Hall Shopping Centre (plenty of space to turn buses in the car park). The reduced journey time should make the existing timetable reliable while also reconnecting the Centre to Darndale. Route 27B is 100% more frequent that originally planned so Route 27 is not needed in Edenmore

Hmm. What do all these services have in common...? Oh yes: being made into excessively-long cross-city routes. The 13, 40 and 27 are now longer than 20 kilometres one-way, with the added burden of having to operate through the city centre. Adding buses won't solve anything, you see, since these moves were done with an eye to reducing the number of operating buses; and adding buses would be a confession of being wrong, as well as conceding that the conventional wisdom of longer routes being increasingly unreliable compared to shorter routes still stands.

And did you forget that the 27B was supposed to be replaced by the extended route 79? As for Edenmore, perhaps the old route 28 needs to make a comeback to replace the current 27/A in that area. And isn't the 15 supposed to be the catch-all replacement for all Clare Hall service?

You can't remove the 40 from the Thomas Street/James Street corridor if there is strong demand for buses to run between there and Ballyfermot.

Originally Posted by KC8

Route 65: Rather than every 2 hours, why not run it between Blessington and the Square every 45 minutes with the same resources?

How about "no"? DB tried this trick with routes 68 and 69 and were quickly rebuffed by the public, who were not going for a forced transfer onto the Luas at Red Cow. The further out the suburb, the more the passenger is going to want a direct ride into the city.

And of course, there is the historical matter of route 65 doing in the competing Dublin & Blessington tram. While it'd be a matter of irony to do a forced transfer onto the new tram, it is as non-viable as being forced onto the tram from Newcastle or Rathcoole (and I don't want to give DB any ideas of turning the 69 into a Rathcoole-Saggart shuttle now that the Luas goes to Saggart).

Furthermore, demand to/from Poulaphouca and the other towns served by the 65 has not diminished, especially Ballymore Eustace, which is not served by Bus Eireann (nor are Ballyknockan and former destination Donard).

Originally Posted by KC8

Route 65B: Cancel the existing service and introduce a new route that runs from The Square in Tallaght along the following Route: Square > Aylesbury > Kilinarden > Citywest > N7 > M50 > N4 > Heuston > Quays > Hawkins Street. Operate every 15 mins peak and 30 mins off peak. This will offer a much faster journey time. Many Bus Eireann services operate from the N7 to the N4 given the bus priority along the N4 and freeflow interchanges on the M50

Provincial routes need to operate as fast as they can into and out of the city, that's why; and nothing was done about the N7 bottleneck in Inchicore. If that bottleneck was fixed, then it'd be faster to run to/from town via the N7.

Problem here is running in the wrong direction out of Tallaght via Citywest to the N7 will make for a longer rather than shorter journey. Your proposed route is 27 kilometres in length. And that's in one direction.

Originally Posted by KC8

Route 77A: Go back to old route. Operate every 15 mins peak and 30 mins off peak. I reckon these changes would save 4 buses

What's the "old route"? City Centre to Bawnville Road via Tallaght Village?

Sure why don't we resurrect the old route 54 then, and do away with the 77A? After all, it's "duplicating" the new route 27 between the city centre and Walkinstown Cross...and maybe the new route 9 could use some supplement to its service...

Originally Posted by KC8

Route 150 should operate along Donore St and then Cork Street rather than the cumbersome and slow diversion through the liberties. Merging it with Route 130 should also be considered

What's "cumbersome and slow" about it? I've often found that taking side streets is faster than trying to negotiate the main thoroughfare. Not only does frequency sell with bus routes, so does convenience. (There's also that matter of route "duplication" again...isn't it "ideal" to have each route run a unique corridor?)

As for merging with another route from the north side, they already cut off the Clogher Road/Kildare Road route from that by cancelling the 121.

Originally Posted by KC8

Rathmines Services
Routes 14, 15 and 83 seem to be running well. Route 15B now offers much faster journey times for most users

I(t) strikes me that even though Route 140 will run less frequently than the old 128 in Rathmines, demand does not justify the 140 frequency on the unique routing in Rathmines. Suggest Route 61 is rerouted along the old 13B from city to Palmerstown and the along old route 14A until is re-joins its existing alignment in Nutgrove. Route 140 terminus reverts to Lesson St Bridge. This should save at least 4 buses

The old 13B (former route 13) operated via Cowper Road, did it not? I thought that the 140 was going to replace the 14A and 128 on Upper Rathmines Road? because the 14 is on Rathgar Road still. Combining the loss of the 14A with that of the 128, this is a huge loss of bus service along Upper Rathmines Road, even with the retention of route 142.

As for the 15B, there are quite fewer buses there now. And I'd say the jury is still out as to whether replacing the 74/A with this bus was a good idea.

Originally Posted by KC8

Ballsbridge
Capacity along the Ballsbridge section is a problem. It’s a shame that Route 4 was butchered

...but not such a shame what happened to route 45? That also used to be an important bus route through Ballsbridge. Never mind the former route 8, when it ran frequently from the city to Dalkey via Dun Laoghaire and Sandycove instead of its current infrequent route.

Originally Posted by KC8

The Route 120 extension doesn’t make sense as residents from Ashtown and Cabra can just get the train if they want to go to that area during peak times. Cancelling the 120 extension will save a peak time bus

Eh? You know that there are no railway stops between Ashtown and Broombridge along the 120's extension, right? The extension of this route is more for residents of Royal Canal Park rather than Ashtown and Cabra people.

Originally Posted by KC8

I suggest frequency is increased on route 4 or Routes 25A/B are extended to the RDS using the old circleline routing. I reckon this can be done with 4 additional buses

Ah, so we want to decrease the reliability of the new fantabulous 25A/B by making the route longer.

And the 120 now runs to/from Ballsbridge. Maybe this extension is making the route problematic rather than the Royal Canal Park one?

Originally Posted by KC8

Others:
Route 68A: The sooner its cancelled the better. The bus could be far better used on other routes. DB should never have given in to such illogical local political pressures

Political pressure or passenger demand? It may seem well and good to tell passengers of the former 19 to bugger off and walk a kilometre or so to catch another bus, but ultimately you aren't in their shoes.

Originally Posted by KC8

Route 16: The proposed merger of Routes 16 and 16A should mean that the instances of bus bunching should reduce offering a much better services – Hurry Up DB!

It's not really a merger, is it? It's a cancellation of the 16A and re-routing of the 16.

As far as this goes, the creation of "Route 3A" is an inefficiency that should have instead been addressed by extending route 2 to the north side and becoming the bus route for Shanard Road. On the south side, the 2 should serve Belfield exclusively while the 3 serves St. John's Church exclusively. What would have been wrong about something like that? (This is an example of your shorter traditional cross-city service that doesn't reduce reliability.)

Originally Posted by KC8

The proposed coordination of timetables along the Howth Road is long overdue – Hurry Up DB!

I think you'll be waiting forever. The attitude at No. 59 may be "Let Them Ride DART"...

[miller50841]

We have set hours and with driving rules brought in we are restricted to hours we can start or amount we can drive. Its a very difficult job and yes most of us do be in early as to do checks on the bus before it leaves rhe depot.

[Posy]

Originally Posted by parsi

If the RTPI cant be relied upon then what's the point? It is supposed to provide the most up to date info.

Early on New Year's eve, the RTPI on dublinbus.ie was showing buses all coming via Suffolk Street- when I got to Suffolk Street, the road was closed to traffic!

Originally Posted by howiya

Route 27 is starting to annoy me again. This morning heading to work from Tallaght, we get to Eden Quay and the driver announces that we have to wait here for the next driver who should be here in about 15 minutes because we are ahead of schedule due to the light traffic...

Same thing happened to me two mornings last week! What is the point of making good time in light traffic, only to be left waiting in town 10-15 minutes for the next driver?
And why do the timetables in town say 'DUE' and then you get on the bus and are left sitting around for 10 minutes before it departs? I'd at least like to know where I stand..

[lxflyer]

Originally Posted by Posy

Early on New Year's eve, the RTPI on dublinbus.ie was showing buses all coming via Suffolk Street- when I got to Suffolk Street, the road was closed to traffic!

Ludicrous - I saw it too. The NTA really do need to get their act together on this.

Originally Posted by Posy

Same thing happened to me two mornings last week! What is the point of making good time in light traffic, only to be left waiting in town 10-15 minutes for the next driver?

And why do the timetables in town say 'DUE' and then you get on the bus and are left sitting around for 10 minutes before it departs? I'd at least like to know where I stand..

As I explained above - you would have to have a completely different schedule in place last week to avoid that - the full service was in operation which is based on normal traffic conditions.

As I understand it the RTPI works off the position of the bus once it has left the terminus and does not reflect the fact that there may be a scheduled stop en route. That might be a complication too far?

[KC8]

Its clear my views arent accepted by all! One thing that I will continue to argue agaisnt is the view that the introduction of cross city services automaticaly means less reliability. With the bus gate in oepration at peak times this just shouldnt be the case. The AVL data should allow DB to establish the average and mean running times for all services and then build in industry standard turnaround times to ensure 95% of services run on time. Unfortunately, this doesnt appear to have been done in this case as running times are clearly too short in many instances.

My justification in curtailing the northside 27 route is due to the frequency of the 27A (27b was a typo - sorry).

Re Route 65. Other than a direct peak time service to the city, I suggest that increasing frequency by a factor of 3 but terminating it at Tallaght would be attratctive to many. Tallaght is likley to be the main destination for many custoemrs in any event.

Finally re route 45, I suggest extending Route 4 to Cornelcourt and cancelling route 45.

[lxflyer]

Originally Posted by KC8

Its clear my views arent accepted by all! One thing that I will continue to argue agaisnt is the view that the introduction of cross city services automaticaly means less reliability. With the bus gate in oepration at peak times this just shouldnt be the case. The AVL data should allow DB to establish the average and mean running times for all services and then build in industry standard turnaround times to ensure 95% of services run on time. Unfortunately, this doesnt appear to have been done in this case as running times are clearly too short in many instances.

My justification in curtailing the northside 27 route is due to the frequency of the 27A (27b was a typo - sorry).

Re Route 65. Other than a direct peak time service to the city, I suggest that increasing frequency by a factor of 3 but terminating it at Tallaght would be attratctive to many. Tallaght is likley to be the main destination for many custoemrs in any event.

Finally re route 45, I suggest extending Route 4 to Cornelcourt and cancelling route 45.

I would entirely agree with your comments on the AVLC - it unfortunately takes time to analyse and see the trends.

You still haven't addressed the issue of Tallaght-Terenure-Rathgar-Rathmines - there are a reasonable number of users making that trip and under your proposals they would have no service other than at peak hours which to my mind is not acceptable.

I don't think that extending route 4 to Cornelscourt will solve the problem I'm afraid. There are full bus loads of schoolchildren using the 45 in the mornings/afternoons from south of there to Blackrock and Booterstown.

[foggy_lad]

On route 45 on boghall rd in bray there are two stops which are only used for the morning 45x busses afaik, the problem with this is that there is nothing on these stops or on the website stating that they are only part time bus stops and not used for regular services.

I had a case a while ago where a disabled person was waiting one evening at one of these stops number 4145 and after waiting over an hour was approached thankfully by a local who explained that no busses used this stop and offered her a lift into Bray to a stop she could get a bus from!

Can anything be done about these phantom stops some of which only have one bus a day?

[schemingbohemia]

Originally Posted by foggy_lad

On route 45 on boghall rd in bray there are two stops which are only used for the morning 45x busses afaik, the problem with this is that there is nothing on these stops or on the website stating that they are only part time bus stops and not used for regular services.

I had a case a while ago where a disabled person was waiting one evening at one of these stops number 4145 and after waiting over an hour was approached thankfully by a local who explained that no busses used this stop and offered her a lift into Bray to a stop she could get a bus from!

Can anything be done about these phantom stops some of which only have one bus a day?

Interesting, when you say "case" do you represent disabled persons and their interactions with transport companies?

[lxflyer]

There was an issue with the 45 being impeded around Wolfe Tone Square by parked cars and if my memory serves me right they diverted via Boghall Road in the early mornings.

Whether this is still the case I don't know.

I'm sure Alek Smart can update us.

[Miss Lockhart]

I just wish the 25a would stop going missing!

On 9 different occasions now I have been waiting for a 25a on Aston Quay that has never appeared.

Strangely, extra 25bs seem to be coming in their place.

[foggy_lad]

Originally Posted by schemingbohemia

Interesting, when you say "case" do you represent disabled persons and their interactions with transport companies?

No but I came across someone who had been left stranded at this stop which had no information at all and the website was no better. AFAIK they have raised the matter with Dublin Bus themselves, I suggested they do contact the company but did not offer to do so on their behalf.

[Cookie_Monster]

Originally Posted by foggy_lad

I had a case a while ago where a disabled person was waiting one evening at one of these stops number 4145 and after waiting over an hour was approached thankfully by a local who explained that no busses used this stop and offered her a lift into Bray to a stop she could get a bus from!

Can't really blame DB for people who won't check timetable and routes before hand given the ease with which it can be done these days. It's not viable to put timetables on every single stop.

[antoinolachtnai]

Sure it is. 4000 stops. Three staff, 1440 hours per year. Allowing one hour per stop, you will be able to update all the timetables once per year.

[Karsini]

For now, the lack of timetables could probably be to do with Network Direct. Timetables have gone up on two stops in Fairview for the 15 in the last few weeks; they would have previously been done when the 14 was extended, and they'll need to be done again when the 79 is extended.

On the other hand, stops with the Braille identification posts will probably never get timetables on them.

[foggy_lad]

Originally Posted by Cookie_Monster

Can't really blame DB for people who won't check timetable and routes before hand given the ease with which it can be done these days. It's not viable to put timetables on every single stop.

The website did not have any information to say that stop was/is not in use or is only used by a few morning busses!

Imagine you were waiting in Bray at superquin for a 145 at 6pm for an hour and someone walking past noticed and told you that they only use that stop between 8am and 10am but there is nothing on the website or bus stop about this as it is local knowledge only!