[littlejp]

Originally Posted by lxflyer

I'm afraid you're wrong.

All I know is I got on the bus (122) the first time. Asked for Camden St. and was told €1.20.
Got the bus this morning and said €1.20 and the driver said that would get me to Leonard's Corner.

My other point stands. The Fare Stages system is crap. It's very confusing and could be replaced with a flat fare.

[Dodge]

I'd prefer zones to flat fares

The stages thing is ridiculous

[lxflyer]

Originally Posted by littlejp

All I know is I got on the bus (122) the first time. Asked for Camden St. and was told €1.20.
Got the bus this morning and said €1.20 and the driver said that would get me to Leonard's Corner.

My other point stands. The Fare Stages system is crap. It's very confusing and could be replaced with a flat fare.

Well luckily for you the 122 driver was also confused - the fare to Camden Street is €1.65, and the 68 driver is correct.

As posted here before it does not help that stage points are not indicated as such on the actual bus stops themselves.

A flat fare really is impractical for Dublin given the length of some journeys - it would result in some people paying far more and others far less. It would be far better to have a zonal structure.

[markpb]

Originally Posted by lxflyer

A flat fare really is impractical for Dublin given the length of some journeys - it would result in some people paying far more and others far less. It would be far better to have a zonal structure.

Why is it impractical for Dublin but okay for other, larger cities?

LA Metro charge a flat fare of $1.50 per trip, with a longest bus route being 43km.
New York MTA charges a flat fare of $2.25 per trip.
Paris RATP buses charge a flat fare of €1.70.

Personally I'd be in favour of a two zone system (inside and outside the M50) but flat fares have a lot going for them.

[lxflyer]

It's impractical either due to the farebox revenue shortfall that would result from longer journeys being cheaper or the flat fare being too expensive for lower fare customers.

Either way given the fact that the subsidy is falling the company cannot afford a further farebox shortfall.

Believe me I'd love a flat fare but given the current economic climate I do not think the company could afford the risk of farebox income falling.

A minimum 2-zone fare structure would be my ideal solution.

[KD345]

It sounds like the driver on the 122 pressed the stage point too early. littlejp's post does highlight the discrepancies in the fare system in that area. For example, why is there a stage point called "Kellys Corner (Camden Street)"? Surely it should read either Harrington Street or Camden Street, there is no stop at Kellys Corner.

Also, while littlejp's post might be incorrect, there are some fare differences in the Dolphins Barn, Inchicore and Drimnagh area.

On route 68, it is 7 stages between SCR and College Green, on the 123 it is just 5, even though passengers board at the same bus stops. This continues on the 123 into parts of Drimnagh, where the 122 is more expensive to travel to the city centre than the 123.

It's cheaper to travel from Hawkins Street to Tyrconnell Road in Inchicore on Route 69 than it is on Route 68. Even though you board and alight at the exact same stops.

The journey between Dolphin's Barn and Kevin Street (4 stages) is more expensive if you use the 27 or 151. It's only classed as 3 stages on Route 77A, again even boarding at the same stops.

There are many more examples across the network. The stage system does not work, it's confusing for passengers, confusing for drivers and does not encourage anybody to take a bus in Dublin.

[markpb]

Originally Posted by lxflyer

It's impractical either due to the farebox revenue shortfall that would result from longer journeys being cheaper or the flat fare being too expensive for lower fare customers.

So basically, it's perfect right now and we shouldn't every try to change it? We've reached the pinnacle in customer fairness and maximum farebox revenue.

Just like using middle doors (works elsewhere but it wouldn't work in Dublin apparently), selling bus-bus transfers on board, selling rail-bus or bus-rail transfers (only one or two routes in the entire city do this), showing timetables with intermediate stop times (works almost everywhere else but not possible in Dublin because we have congestion unlike NYC, Paris or LA), putting route maps online (only happened in 2010), putting audio and visual displays onboard buses, selling tickets at bus stops (other than the airport), etc, etc. The list is endless and everyone is full of reasons why we couldn't even consider them.

Some day I'll find out why it is that all these things are possible all round the world but are impossible for Dublin Bus.

[lxflyer]

Originally Posted by markpb

So basically, it's perfect right now and we shouldn't every try to change it? We've reached the pinnacle in customer fairness and maximum farebox revenue.

Just like using middle doors (works elsewhere but it wouldn't work in Dublin apparently), selling bus-bus transfers on board, selling rail-bus or bus-rail transfers (only one or two routes in the entire city do this), showing timetables with intermediate stop times (works almost everywhere else but not possible in Dublin because we have congestion unlike NYC, Paris or LA), putting route maps online (only happened in 2010), putting audio and visual displays onboard buses, selling tickets at bus stops (other than the airport), etc, etc. The list is endless and everyone is full of reasons why we couldn't even consider them.

Some day I'll find out why it is that all these things are possible all round the world but are impossible for Dublin Bus.

Now you are misrepresenting what I said.

I didn't say it was perfect by any means nor did I suggest retaining the status quo - in fact I suggested a zonal fare structure would be better. Anything that is simpler than the staged fare system.

The risk of implementing a flat fare is a drop in farebox revenue and right now the company cannot afford that as that will only mean reductions in services (however desireable it is).

[AlekSmart]

Originally Posted by littlejp

All I know is I got on the bus (122) the first time. Asked for Camden St. and was told €1.20.
Got the bus this morning and said €1.20 and the driver said that would get me to Leonard's Corner.

My other point stands. The Fare Stages system is crap. It's very confusing and could be replaced with a flat fare.

And so it continues......this is an issue which is going to explode all over thgese boards come Jan 1st as those cash-fare payers who remain unaware of Leap (There are THOUSANDS in this bracket) suddenly find themselves in confrontation with a Busdriver who actually knows his/her stages.

For example in Littlejp's case the €1.20 he currently pays is incorrect.
As he/she is boarding between a Stage Point the fare is calculated from the preceeding stage,thus this is a 4 stage fare and it's €1.65.

Now,fast-forward to Jan 1 and little jp meets a grumpy sod of a Driver who knows it's a 4 stage fare and seks payment of €1.90...cue littlejp being taken-aback and seeking a full & frank explanation from the GSOAD....multiply this scenario by 100,1000,10,000 and you can see TROUBLE.

ALL because Dublin Bus removed the actual Stage Identification some years back and allowed the process of guesswork,rumour and innuendo to replace it.

Many of today's Drivers have NEVER seen an actual Stage Marking in their entire career,yet,they ostensibly operate a Fare-Stage system....how ?...Black Magic and guesswork I'd suggest.

KD345's post underlines the futility of referring to the TimeTable book,currently the only means available to a customer of identifying Stage Points,as it is full of ambiguities and folksy descriptions of premises and places long gone.

It gets back to the basics...if we cannot start at A,B,C...then there's little point in splitting the Atom on the platform of a 122 ?

Identify the Fare Stages NOW....not sometime is Q2 2012,after we've lost a few hundred more pasengers due to confrontational issues,and €1.20 going to €1.90 IS just such an issue...believe me !

[Jaysoose]

Originally Posted by ArmaniJeanss

There was also probably an element of politicing in the move to run the 38A through the village as a replacement 39.

Castlecurragh, Warrenstown, Corduff and Waterville would be low voter turnout people, with a large amount of unregister (for voting purposes) foreigners who wouldn't know who to ring or complain to, Those in the area that do vote would tend to be Joe Higgins or Sinn Fein voters, i.e. politicians with no actual power or link to power.
Whereas the people of Blanchardstown Village and surrounding areas would be more organised, a higher proprtion registered and knowing how things work, and a more traditional centre-ist voting history.

So a bus service that was functioning perfectly well was altered to suit the few people that knew who and where to complain at the expense of the majority. This is pretty much the opposite of improving something, the service has actually declined in this case yet the network direct lads are all sitting around in meetings with deskbound managers talking about how innovative the whole process has been and how great they all are when the customer has less options less frequently.

Dublin bus is a disgrace.

[markpb]

Originally Posted by ArmaniJeanss

Castlecurragh, Warrenstown, Corduff and Waterville would be low voter turnout people, with a large amount of unregister (for voting purposes) foreigners who wouldn't know who to ring or complain to

Originally Posted by Jaysoose

So a bus service that was functioning perfectly well was altered to suit the few people that knew who and where to complain at the expense of the majority

Jesus, there's enough legitimate complaints about ND and DB without having to fantasise and dream up some!

[lxflyer]

Originally Posted by Jaysoose

So a bus service that was functioning perfectly well was altered to suit the few people that knew who and where to complain at the expense of the majority. This is pretty much the opposite of improving something, the service has actually declined in this case yet the network direct lads are all sitting around in meetings with deskbound managers talking about how innovative the whole process has been and how great they all are when the customer has less options less frequently.

Dublin bus is a disgrace.

How reliable is the 38/a/b now?

Given you (rightly) complained about it before the timetable has changed you have never posted about it since. Can we take it buses are showing up when they should?

[ArmaniJeanss]

Originally Posted by markpb

Jesus, there's enough legitimate complaints about ND and DB without having to fantasise and dream up some!

It has been hinted locally that political power in Blanchardstown ('having a big TD in the area') helped the decision. It may be rubbish, but there has to be an explanation of why X hundred people were (without consulatation) given an improved service at the expense of another X hundred people being given a lesser service.

Originally Posted by lxflyer

How reliable is the 38/a/b now?

Given you (rightly) complained about it before the timetable has changed you have never posted about it since. Can we take it buses are showing up when they should?

Reliability is important but its not the only factor. At an extreme level if there was only five 46As a day and they took 3 scheduled hours for the journey they could have 100% timetable reliability but it would be a completely crap service.

Telling us on the 38A that we now have reliability when it's clearly a hugely inferior service vis a vis what we had up until September 2010 is disengenuous speak at its best.

[lxflyer]

Originally Posted by ArmaniJeanss

Reliability is important but its not the only factor. At an extreme level if there was only five 46As a day and they took 3 scheduled hours for the journey they could have 100% timetable reliability but it would be a completely crap service.

Telling us on the 38A that we now have reliability when it's clearly a hugely inferior service vis a vis what we had up until September 2010 is disengenuous speak at its best.

I was simply asking the question?

Don't bite my head off - I'm not "telling" you anything.

I just wanted to know if the service was reliable or not since the last timetable change?

[ArmaniJeanss]

Originally Posted by lxflyer

I was simply asking the question?

Don't bite my head off - I'm not "telling" you anything.

I just wanted to know if the service was reliable or not since the last timetable change?

I basically never get the 38 so can't comment.

When going into town I try to only use the 38B where possible . It's very reliable though it has suffered with some road works going on in Mulhuddart village which has sent the bulk of traffic through Castlecurragh/Warrenstown causing a jam here, so it probably seems very hit and miss for the likes of Jaysoose in Warrenstown.

Coming home the odd one 38A seems to go missing completely, but no more than one a month. I'd consider it very reliable and the 'new' Blanch section doesn't add on too much at my time anyway (7PM ish).

The 38A from Damastown. Its probably reliable as such, it seems to turn up on time when I use it. It is not a good service though, as I've explained in this thread and others it can as little as 5 or 6 minutes or as much as 20+ minutes to do the 'new' Blanch section as the traffic flow, lights and road configuration is against it making speedy progress.

Personally when my only choice is a 38A on a weekday (i.e., after 8.36AM) I've got into the habit of getting a taxi from Warrenstown to the first busstop after Auburn Avenue. Around €7, then get the first 39A, 70 etc which comes along. The 38A is that bad that I can justify €7 to avoid it.

Dublin Bus have done a lot right on this route, they are close to having it perfect. Just need to scrap the one mistake.