[crucamim]

Originally Posted by MYOB

The trackbed of the Harcourt St. line was re-used, yes. But it used to run to Bray not Dalkey

At the risk of diverting the thread and incurring the wrath of the moderators, was there another line in that same area which did run to Dalkey (or Blackrock)?

[BluntGuy]

Originally Posted by crucamim

At the risk of diverting the thread and incurring the wrath of the moderators, was there another line in that same area which did run to Dalkey (or Blackrock)?

What wrath? We're nice people.

Yeah, it's become incredibly obvious the last 2 or 3 pages have veered more into DART territory, but seeing as how there's very little new developments happening on either project and how this project must be viewed in the context of the overall network, I don't personally mind some overlap in discussion. If the thread looks like it's going to become completely DART-related, we can always move posts to the DART Underground thread.

[crucamim]

Originally Posted by spacetweek

It's not. It absolutely *has* to compete effectively against the car, or it's doomed.

And it will also have to compete effectively with the bus. The difficulty finding car parking space near the city centre might make the bus the more deadly competitor. Moreover, the new motorway network threatens to make buses even more attractive for long distance passengers. And the motorways provide potential for longer, wider and more comfortable buses.

It might be the car which saves the passenger rail servces. Cars congest roads thereby slowing bus services. That keeps passenger rail competitive in large urban areas.

If the government were to introduce "no private motoring" zones in Dublin, rail passenger services, on the current rail infrastructure, would be doomed. And might be doomed regardless of the infrastructure available to trains.

[MYOB]

Originally Posted by crucamim

At the risk of diverting the thread and incurring the wrath of the moderators, was there another line in that same area which did run to Dalkey (or Blackrock)?

The one thats still open as the DART.

[spacetweek]

Originally Posted by DWCommuter

I suggested the route be upgraded post interconnector/Metro as a cheaper and easier alternative than the direct route.

I thought it was meant to be a cheaper alternative to the direct route that we could have in place quickly? Surely by the time IC/MN are finished (2018?) we'll already have the direct route.

Originally Posted by DWCommuter

Personally I believe the M3 will kill off the demand for a rail service to Navan and Im on record with that for a number of years.

Personally I think the road won't satisfy all transport needs, but I'm not 100% sure - these things tend to rely on a large number of factors. I think this is a hard one to call, so I'll leave it at that.

Originally Posted by crucamim

It might be the car which saves the passenger rail servces. Cars congest roads thereby slowing bus services. That keeps passenger rail competitive in large urban areas.

Yes, it always is. Even in cities with very efficient bus systems, rail has an advantage that buses can never have - complete segregation from traffic and intersections. So rail is worth investing in for Irish cities even assuming we overhaul the bus system.

Anyway, I really really hope Metro North starts early next year as planned.

[FreudianSlippers]

Originally Posted by DWCommuter

Personally I believe the M3 will kill off the demand for a rail service to Navan and Im on record with that for a number of years.

But it'll still bottleneck completely once it gets to the M50 roundabout. That's where the main traffic nightmare is IMO (N3 from M50 roundabout into city centre).

[mackerski]

Originally Posted by OisinT

But it'll still bottleneck completely once it gets to the M50 roundabout. That's where the main traffic nightmare is IMO (N3 from M50 roundabout into city centre).

In a few months time there won't be an M50 roundabout on the city-bound N3.

[FreudianSlippers]

Originally Posted by mackerski

In a few months time there won't be an M50 roundabout on the city-bound N3.

I realise that, but I'd be surprised if that really totally solves the problem of traffic from the roundabout (which will still be there but with flyovers/onramp/offramp for M50) into the city centre. The narrow Navan Road is always congested and there's nothing they can do about it.

[eia340600]

Originally Posted by mackerski

In a few months time there won't be an M50 roundabout on the city-bound N3.

I may be mistaken, but as far as I know there will be a roundabout, with traffic lights, situated on the N3 just before and after the M50 junction.Surely these will cause some build-up.I couldn't believe it when I saw that the GSJ was being put in without these roundabouts being removed.

[etchyed]

Originally Posted by eia340600

I may be mistaken, but as far as I know there will be a roundabout, with traffic lights, situated on the N3 just before and after the M50 junction.Surely these will cause some build-up.I couldn't believe it when I saw that the GSJ was being put in without these roundabouts being removed.

Both roundabouts are gone already. Auburn Avenue roundabout is now a traffic-light controlled crossroads. The Blanch village roundabout is now also a traffic light-controlled T-junction but will be bypassed by most traffic (N3 In, N3 In-M50N, N3 In-M50S, M50N-N3 Out, M50S-N3 Out will all avoid it). The big remaining problem is the Auburn Avenue crossroads but I expect the lights will give very high priority to through traffic.

[DWCommuter]

Originally Posted by spacetweek

I thought it was meant to be a cheaper alternative to the direct route that we could have in place quickly? Surely by the time IC/MN are finished (2018?) we'll already have the direct route.

Personally I think the road won't satisfy all transport needs, but I'm not 100% sure - these things tend to rely on a large number of factors. I think this is a hard one to call, so I'll leave it at that.

Yes, it always is. Even in cities with very efficient bus systems, rail has an advantage that buses can never have - complete segregation from traffic and intersections. So rail is worth investing in for Irish cities even assuming we overhaul the bus system.

Anyway, I really really hope Metro North starts early next year as planned.

First and foremost, if the Interconnector is delayed to 2018, there isn't a hope in hell that Navan will happen before it. In fact, Ive said it before, the direct route to Navan will never happen.

The route via Drogheda is a cheaper alternative and could be in place a lot quicker. Putting it in place now allows for only a few train paths. But as part of a post interconnector scenario, far more paths are available.

But as Ive said before its all hypothetical. I personally can't see the Interconnector ever being built. The wealth was temporary and based on unsustainable construction.

As for Metro North, I'll throw the piss on the picnic line out again. Despite it being a PPP and a case of the state not having to upfront the cash, it still has to be funded annually for many years. (the payback) If you consider the cuts to micky mouse budgets thats going on, then a few hundred million a year for many years doesn't look enticing. You can add to that the continued world wide banking crisis that makes it difficult to finance anything. The aforementioned 500 million loan towards constructions costs is a pittance and at the end of the day is still a loan.

My prediction - Metro North won't start anytime soon.

[FreudianSlippers]

Unfortunately for everyone in a cyclical economic model such as the one in the western world, in order to get out of a recession/depression major works must be commissioned from whatever money can be found. Money is theoretical and banks can give loans to governments to finance large projects.
Those projects put people back into work who can then make money to spend which causes growth in business, and so on...

We cannot afford to sit on our hands and do nothing. Infrastructure is a proven investment internationally to benefit the economy once it is done quickly enough to prevent a depression.

[BluntGuy]

Unfortunately any money that could potentially be put into these projects, or job-creation measures is currently being shovelled rapidly into a big burning black hole called Anglo Irish - systemically important for FF it would seem, but not for Ireland. I don't want to turn this into a politics thread, but I feel people who think Lenny is doing a great job really need to wake up and smell the bulls**t. He's abysmal.

A 500 million loan between two projects which add up to at least 8-10 billion between them is little more than a token gesture.

Metro North is more likely to go ahead though, I think we all accept that at this point.

[donaghs]

Originally Posted by crucamim

At the risk of diverting the thread and incurring the wrath of the moderators, was there another line in that same area which did run to Dalkey (or Blackrock)?

One of the old Dublin trams did go from Nelson's Pillar to Dalkey, via Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire. The no.8 I think, who's replacement Dublin Bus still follows a similar route.
Here's a map of the routes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Du...nals_pubv2.jpg

[Cool Mo D]

Originally Posted by DWCommuter

As for Metro North, I'll throw the piss on the picnic line out again. Despite it being a PPP and a case of the state not having to upfront the cash, it still has to be funded annually for many years. (the payback) If you consider the cuts to micky mouse budgets thats going on, then a few hundred million a year for many years doesn't look enticing. You can add to that the continued world wide banking crisis that makes it difficult to finance anything. The aforementioned 500 million loan towards constructions costs is a pittance and at the end of the day is still a loan.

My prediction - Metro North won't start anytime soon.

I agree that Metro North is by no means certain, but I'd say it's more like 50:50 if it's done or not.

Realistically, 100 million a year is not much in the context of our debt.

I would predict that in five years time a period of very high inflation will kick in, as all western governments, especially the USA, Japan, Germany and the UK are all currently saddled with lots of debt, and inflating it away is politically easier than long term austerity. This would make borrowing now more affordable.

I'm sorta hoping that the outgoing Government signs contracts for some major infrastructural projects on their way out the door - even as a kick in the face to the next crowd - they know they wont be in government for a few elections after this, and in ten years time they can sell themselves as the people that built Ireland's roads and public transport, as opposed to the ones who viciously cut spending.

I still won't vote for them, but I would like to see them do it...

Either way, I don't think the picture is quite as bleak as you make out, but whether anything will be built soon is very uncertain.