Boards.ie

SkepticOne · 08-03-2010, 18:42

I think that might be the problem. It is not that every mod can see the infraction record, it is that the record is permanently visible. A once off misdemeanor results in a permanent punishment. The punishment takes the form of mild embarrassment or shame. It is a minor punishment but one that continues indefinitely.

My recommendation would be to have it removed from visibility after say six months. So if someone wants a clean record all they have to do is stop acting the maggot for six months. By leaving it permanent you remove that incentive.

LuckyLloyd · 08-03-2010, 18:55

They are only an effective discipline tool if they have the meatier punishment of a ban to back them up. Bans are a decent punishment because people who are here regularly want to / like to post and when you take that away from them it sticks in their minds. Most people brush off the yellow card / red card side of things without too much trouble. For sure, they may argue the point with a couple of PMs. But bans really force a reaction.

As a soccer mod, I issued a ton of warnings / infractions. They worked as part of a well structured disciplinary system - warnings / infractions did not exist in a vacuum. Pick up a certain amount in a certain period and there would be a long term ban penalty to be paid. Users were aware that the threat of a long term ban lurked in the background, so yellow and red cards became things to be genuinely avoided.

From the perspective of the soccer mod team, having a record of warnings and infractions was invaluable, as it helped to flag intractable trouble makers. And in a forum like soccer (the subject by its very nature breeds antagonism) having a black and white disciplinary process (i.e. user causes x amount of trouble he gets y amount of punishment irrespective of context) is extremely necessary. There will be an inevitable need to remove a decent amount of posters from the forum for extended periods / permanently so there is a requirement for a clearly earmarked process to do so. As such, the purpose of issuing them was to let the user and the moderator know that their behaviour was leading them towards a ban.

However, if you asked me whether I believe that the method of moderation employed in the soccer forum could be characterised as over zealous I would have to agree to a large extent. It is necessary, because the subject and the way it pushes emotional buttons produces a forum that would quickly descend into anarchy without rigid structures and close moderation. In accepting that though, you have to accept that soccer is a unique forum. Most forums will benefit a lot more from a moderating method that prizes context based decision making and punishment.

I think the way forward is to look at every individual forum on its own merits, talk to the moderators / regular posters and get a feel for what the best moderation approach would be. By doing so, you may find that:

- infractions can / should be disabled for particular forums;
- the list of available reasons when issuing infractions can be tailored individually forum by forum;

My view has always been that the biggest possible mistake is trying to homogenize anything to do with moderation / disciplinary tools across the site.

Fries-With-That · 08-03-2010, 18:55

Personally I don't think they are a bad idea if the mod of the forum is open to his infraction being discussed.

With regards to the lenght of time an infraction appears on a persons record, this needs to be looked at again.

Its a little harsh to think a person that wants to maintain an account could have an infraction on his record forever, but someone that acts the maggot on a regular basis or gets banned, can just open a new account and do whatever they want.

Why does a reversed infraction still appear on your record ? (in my case
anyway)

Hagar · 09-03-2010, 07:09

People make mistakes, most people learn from them, to be forced to wear a badge of shame for the rest of your days on Boards for an indiscretion that you wouldn't repeat is demeaning.

Nevyn · 09-03-2010, 08:57

Badge of shame?

I will look at in fractions when banning someone, how long ago their last infraction was makes a difference.
If someone has been trolling and has had infractoins recently then that has an impact,
but so does if the infractons are 6 months old or longer, that means they may have turned over a new leafe and that also has an impact.

Conor · 09-03-2010, 10:15

29.4% of people who have received an infraction have received more than one infraction.

If you look at all the users who have received an infraction and compare the date of their last infraction versus the date of their last post you find that most people haven't gone that long of a stretch since their last infraction.

53.6% of people who have received an infraction have done so within 30 days of their last post.
63.3% of people who have received an infraction have done so within 90 days of their last post.
74.3% of people who have received an infraction have done so within 180 days of their last post.
87.4% of people who have received an infraction have done so within 365 days of their last post.

Perhaps a better solution for those worried about the long-term record would be for users to ask the admins to expunge old infractions if they've been a good user for a significant amount of time. Couple that with a rule-of-thumb which says "Don't bother asking if you have more than X infractions or the last one happened less than Y months ago" and you might have a compromise.

Hagar · 09-03-2010, 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conor

29.4% of people who have received an infraction have received more than one infraction.

Therefore 70.6% of people with a infraction don't re-offend but carry the "black mark" forever.

Nevyn · 09-03-2010, 10:46

Black mark?
Well how about this one, if you have had a ban form when the new modutils came online
all mods can check your ban history.

It's not a black mark or a badge of shame or a scarlett letter.

If you get banned or get an infraction and you learn form it then wonderful,
and that can been seen it's great to see it when it happens.

The mindset that it's a blemish and a stain which marks you for ever (out, out damn spot)
is one you should think about changing cos really I don't know anyone else who thinks of it that way.

Hagar · 09-03-2010, 11:00

I'm obviously a minority of one so. Please disregard my posts.

Conor · 09-03-2010, 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by 69

Therefore 70.6% of people with a infraction don't re-offend but carry the "black mark" forever.

Well I wouldn't say "forever" since "forever" for the vast majority people is less than a year. Personally, I probably wouldn't expunge an infraction that's less than a year old since I'd still consider it valid information that a mod needs to know.

Remember, the only time a mod will see that you have previous infractions is when they're looking at your infraction history. The only time they'll be doing that is when you've done something bad. You can very effectively hide your infraction record by not coming to the attention of a mod for bad reasons.

Hagar · 09-03-2010, 11:11

Forever is only true up to the moment. I accept that as I accept that your other stats might in the future change for the worse.

Not 100% true. They yellow/red card is visible to all mods beside the offending post and will turn up anytime a search is made that highlights the post even if the poster is not being investigated for bad behaviour.

Conor · 09-03-2010, 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by 69

Not 100% true. They yellow/red card is visible to all mods beside the offending post and will turn up anytime a search is made that highlights the post even if the poster is not being investigated for bad behaviour.

Ah yes, but reading the content of the post will be at least as damning.

Hagar · 09-03-2010, 11:23

I think I'll stop now while I'm behind.

Nevyn · 09-03-2010, 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by 69

I'm obviously a minority of one so. Please disregard my posts.

You can ask and challenge on it, I am just doing the same back to you re your very emotive language.
It's not like a boards profile is like an army record and a single blemish can rule someone out for promotion
or be used as a reason to deny a transfer.

***LoLth*** · 09-03-2010, 12:03

my view on the infractions remaining visible to mods would be an issue on continuity. just because a mod changes in a forum, should all past transgressions be washed away? It used to be that if a mod took over from another mod, the outgoing would fill them in on the potential trouble and repeat offenders. this worked for a small community but as boards grew it was almost impossible to maintain without mod-generational vendettas starting (chinese whispers from mod to mod). With infractions, the mods can see the user's history for themsleves. this removes the "human" element and the record speaks for itself.

Now, if I look at a user profile I dont just look at the number of infractions, I look at the dates. An infraction from a year ago does not mean as much to me as one from yesterday. an infraction spree every month would suggest a repeat offender/ troll pushing the rules and I'll know what to expect in the future.

its NOT a badge of shame. its just a record. Same as prior bans depend more on the reason for the ban than the ban itself. Permaban from forum X for repeated trolling is nowhere near as bad as , for example, permaban from forum Y for threatening another user or bullying.

thing is, the record is onyl as good and as useful as the reson recorded. I'd like to see mods (and cmods and admins) give more detail when giving infractions or bans. (instead of "being naughty" I'd like to see the phrase "repeated thread derailment" or "taunting user" etc). Same for bans but thats a different kettle of monkeys.

08-03-2010, 18:55	#18
Fries-With-That Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 305 Adverts \| Friends	Infractions Personally I don't think they are a bad idea if the mod of the forum is open to his infraction being discussed. With regards to the lenght of time an infraction appears on a persons record, this needs to be looked at again. Its a little harsh to think a person that wants to maintain an account could have an infraction on his record forever, but someone that acts the maggot on a regular basis or gets banned, can just open a new account and do whatever they want. Why does a reversed infraction still appear on your record ? (in my case anyway)

09-03-2010, 10:15	#21
Conor Closed Account Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,359 Adverts \| Friends	29.4% of people who have received an infraction have received more than one infraction. If you look at all the users who have received an infraction and compare the date of their last infraction versus the date of their last post you find that most people haven't gone that long of a stretch since their last infraction. 53.6% of people who have received an infraction have done so within 30 days of their last post. 63.3% of people who have received an infraction have done so within 90 days of their last post. 74.3% of people who have received an infraction have done so within 180 days of their last post. 87.4% of people who have received an infraction have done so within 365 days of their last post. Perhaps a better solution for those worried about the long-term record would be for users to ask the admins to expunge old infractions if they've been a good user for a significant amount of time. Couple that with a rule-of-thumb which says "Don't bother asking if you have more than X infractions or the last one happened less than Y months ago" and you might have a compromise.

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08-03-2010, 18:42	#16
SkepticOne Registered User Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 6,693 Adverts \| Friends	I think that might be the problem. It is not that every mod can see the infraction record, it is that the record is permanently visible. A once off misdemeanor results in a permanent punishment. The punishment takes the form of mild embarrassment or shame. It is a minor punishment but one that continues indefinitely. My recommendation would be to have it removed from visibility after say six months. So if someone wants a clean record all they have to do is stop acting the maggot for six months. By leaving it permanent you remove that incentive.

08-03-2010, 18:55	#17
LuckyLloyd The Voice of Reason Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Away Posts: 23,231 Adverts \| Friends	They are only an effective discipline tool if they have the meatier punishment of a ban to back them up. Bans are a decent punishment because people who are here regularly want to / like to post and when you take that away from them it sticks in their minds. Most people brush off the yellow card / red card side of things without too much trouble. For sure, they may argue the point with a couple of PMs. But bans really force a reaction. As a soccer mod, I issued a ton of warnings / infractions. They worked as part of a well structured disciplinary system - warnings / infractions did not exist in a vacuum. Pick up a certain amount in a certain period and there would be a long term ban penalty to be paid. Users were aware that the threat of a long term ban lurked in the background, so yellow and red cards became things to be genuinely avoided. From the perspective of the soccer mod team, having a record of warnings and infractions was invaluable, as it helped to flag intractable trouble makers. And in a forum like soccer (the subject by its very nature breeds antagonism) having a black and white disciplinary process (i.e. user causes x amount of trouble he gets y amount of punishment irrespective of context) is extremely necessary. There will be an inevitable need to remove a decent amount of posters from the forum for extended periods / permanently so there is a requirement for a clearly earmarked process to do so. As such, the purpose of issuing them was to let the user and the moderator know that their behaviour was leading them towards a ban. However, if you asked me whether I believe that the method of moderation employed in the soccer forum could be characterised as over zealous I would have to agree to a large extent. It is necessary, because the subject and the way it pushes emotional buttons produces a forum that would quickly descend into anarchy without rigid structures and close moderation. In accepting that though, you have to accept that soccer is a unique forum. Most forums will benefit a lot more from a moderating method that prizes context based decision making and punishment. I think the way forward is to look at every individual forum on its own merits, talk to the moderators / regular posters and get a feel for what the best moderation approach would be. By doing so, you may find that: - infractions can / should be disabled for particular forums; - the list of available reasons when issuing infractions can be tailored individually forum by forum; My view has always been that the biggest possible mistake is trying to homogenize anything to do with moderation / disciplinary tools across the site.

09-03-2010, 07:09	#19
Hagar User 7841 Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leper Colony 5 Posts: 16,205 Adverts \| Friends	People make mistakes, most people learn from them, to be forced to wear a badge of shame for the rest of your days on Boards for an indiscretion that you wouldn't repeat is demeaning.

09-03-2010, 08:57	#20
Nevyn Closed Account Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 42,870 Adverts \| Friends	Badge of shame? I will look at in fractions when banning someone, how long ago their last infraction was makes a difference. If someone has been trolling and has had infractoins recently then that has an impact, but so does if the infractons are 6 months old or longer, that means they may have turned over a new leafe and that also has an impact.

09-03-2010, 10:46	#23
Nevyn Closed Account Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 42,870 Adverts \| Friends	Black mark? Well how about this one, if you have had a ban form when the new modutils came online all mods can check your ban history. It's not a black mark or a badge of shame or a scarlett letter. If you get banned or get an infraction and you learn form it then wonderful, and that can been seen it's great to see it when it happens. The mindset that it's a blemish and a stain which marks you for ever (out, out damn spot) is one you should think about changing cos really I don't know anyone else who thinks of it that way.

09-03-2010, 11:00	#24
Hagar User 7841 Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leper Colony 5 Posts: 16,205 Adverts \| Friends	I'm obviously a minority of one so. Please disregard my posts.

09-03-2010, 11:11	#26
Hagar User 7841 Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leper Colony 5 Posts: 16,205 Adverts \| Friends	Forever is only true up to the moment. I accept that as I accept that your other stats might in the future change for the worse. Not 100% true. They yellow/red card is visible to all mods beside the offending post and will turn up anytime a search is made that highlights the post even if the poster is not being investigated for bad behaviour.

09-03-2010, 11:23	#28
Hagar User 7841 Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leper Colony 5 Posts: 16,205 Adverts \| Friends	I think I'll stop now while I'm behind.

09-03-2010, 12:03	#30
*LoLth* Ergonomically Terrific! Join Date: Feb 1998 Location: little boxes. Posts: 7,928 Adverts \| Friends Admin: Book of Condolences, Feedback, Forum Requests, Security	my view on the infractions remaining visible to mods would be an issue on continuity. just because a mod changes in a forum, should all past transgressions be washed away? It used to be that if a mod took over from another mod, the outgoing would fill them in on the potential trouble and repeat offenders. this worked for a small community but as boards grew it was almost impossible to maintain without mod-generational vendettas starting (chinese whispers from mod to mod). With infractions, the mods can see the user's history for themsleves. this removes the "human" element and the record speaks for itself. Now, if I look at a user profile I dont just look at the number of infractions, I look at the dates. An infraction from a year ago does not mean as much to me as one from yesterday. an infraction spree every month would suggest a repeat offender/ troll pushing the rules and I'll know what to expect in the future. its NOT a badge of shame. its just a record. Same as prior bans depend more on the reason for the ban than the ban itself. Permaban from forum X for repeated trolling is nowhere near as bad as , for example, permaban from forum Y for threatening another user or bullying. thing is, the record is onyl as good and as useful as the reson recorded. I'd like to see mods (and cmods and admins) give more detail when giving infractions or bans. (instead of "being naughty" I'd like to see the phrase "repeated thread derailment" or "taunting user" etc). Same for bans but thats a different kettle of monkeys.