[Aidan1]

The main reason for the ire over the M9 is that it is the outcome of a political decision made as soon as one M. Cullen became Minister for Transport - there is no mystery or even an element of conspiracy theorising about that, it's a matter of historical record. So, purely by dint of these political shenanigans, a piece of infrastructure got built that is, on the surface at least, far in excess of what is required, while other roads that are just as dangerous as the N9, and carry more traffic, will go for at least another 10 years before replacement.

Though I hate to admit it, Mysterious has a point - to a large extent the M9 unnecessarily duplicates other routes, and effectively undermines the logic behind much of the 1998 RNA, and the decisions that were taken even before that (mainly as to the route of the M7/M8 - if Waterford was to get a direct M-way connection, it would have been easier and cheaper to bring the M8 to Kilkenny, and diverge just south of there for Cork and Waterford). So it's an expensive way of deviating from policy, and is largely responsible for the over provision of motorway.

So while it's a sunk asset now, and it will benefit the people of Waterford and the SE hugely over the coming years, that shouldn't mean that people can't discuss the effect political clientelism has on policy decisions that cost the exchequer very large amounts of money, be that the WDC or the M9. And just because those decisions might be criticised doesn't mean that anyone is criticising the locations themselves, or the people that happen to live there.

[Sponge Bob]

I refuse to get in involved in this M9 vitriol for the same reasons as Aidan because the time to do it was before the contracts were signed. Once they were signed it becomes pointless save as an interesting historical fact. I said before that I wish Waterford the very best with the decent new road and I still do.

Cullen had a lot less to do with it than he claims, the only road he delivered was the R Road bypass of Waterford.

The decision to connect all the Main Cities to Dublin _first_ was made in the late 1990s with the first NDP and Cullen was not even in the cabinet. Prior to this decision the likes of the N20 and N24 had about the same national status as the N9 or N6 because they connected a main city to a main city.

The NRA then had to follow national policy as announced in the NDP ...the NRA never took much heed overlays onto the NDP such as the national Spacer Strategy or T21.

Of course the first 50 miles out of Dublin in EVERY direction was always a national priority because they were an absolute disgrace...inadequate as they were by about 1970 ...the interesting bit is how they ever became a priority on the much less trafficked midland sections.

But yes Aidan, this is about the history of roads policy ...not about actual policy which has been chucked out to quangos so that Dempsey can blame anybody but himself for everything.

We still have Noel Dempsey in charge and Noel has told us in no uncertain that his next legislative and policy priority will be to make us clean footpaths outside our houses. Noel is not even responsible for footpaths.....Gormley is

[fricatus]

Originally Posted by Aidan1

...if Waterford was to get a direct M-way connection, it would have been easier and cheaper to bring the M8 to Kilkenny, and diverge just south of there for Cork and Waterford). So it's an expensive way of deviating from policy, and is largely responsible for the over provision of motorway.

I agree with this point. The best thing in my view would have been two motorways from Dublin to Cork, one going near Kilkenny and Waterford, and the other going near Birr and Limerick. This could have split off towards Galway near Birr. The decision to shadow the old N-routes was wrong.

Originally Posted by Aidan1

So while it's a sunk asset now, and it will benefit the people of Waterford and the SE hugely over the coming years, that shouldn't mean that people can't discuss the effect political clientelism has on policy decisions that cost the exchequer very large amounts of money, be that the WDC or the M9. And just because those decisions might be criticised doesn't mean that anyone is criticising the locations themselves, or the people that happen to live there.

The problem that I have, Aidan1 is that Waterford and the south-east have fallen behind the rest of the country since the 1970s, precisely because of political decisions made back then that weren't based on need or demographic facts. It disgusts me that when we finally do get what we've needed for years, that it was because of that same clientelism. Because of that, I can't deny people their right to criticise, but I feel that they should view things in the context of "40 years of hurt" rather than the bonanza of the past five.

What I find puzzling in all this is that a motorway link from Dublin to Galway was taken as a given, whereas the one from Dublin to Waterford was attacked and derided as unnecessary. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the impression I always got, and when you look at the population figures, it would seem that each one is as necessary (or not!) as the other. Yes, Waterford is smaller than Galway, but so is its boundary, so what would you expect

It's only when you compare like with like that you get a true picture of an area's population profile, and that's why I analysed a 25 km circle around each city, rather than relying on political boundaries. I know Dublin is too big for this analysis to be reliable, but Galway, Limerick and Waterford are of similar scale (25 km out puts you well in the countryside), so I stand over my analysis where these three cities are concerned.

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by fricatus

I agree with this point. The best thing in my view would have been two motorways from Dublin to Cork, one going near Kilkenny and Waterford, and the other going near Birr and Limerick. This could have split off towards Galway near Birr. The decision to shadow the old N-routes was wrong.

No it wouldn't make any sense to put the M7 up to Birr. Since The N21/N20 Tralee, Ennis, Kilarney and other towns west and south of Limerick would be off the Dublin radar.

The fact of the matter remains as Aidan said stands. Waterford M9 was not needed, they should of made a spur to the M8 or M11. It was a complete waste of money.

The problem that I have, Aidan1 is that Waterford and the south-east have fallen behind the rest of the country since the 1970s, precisely because of political decisions made back then that weren't based on need or demographic facts. It disgusts me that when we finally do get what we've needed for years, that it was because of that same clientelism. Because of that, I can't deny people their right to criticise, but I feel that they should view things in the context of "40 years of hurt" rather than the bonanza of the past five.

You really need to stop this victimisation fiasco. The SE didn't lose out soelty, because all of Ireland lost out and was poor in the 70s.


[/quote]
What I find puzzling in all this is that a motorway link from Dublin to Galway was taken as a given, whereas the one from Dublin to Waterford was attacked and derided as unnecessary. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the impression I always got, and when you look at the population figures, it would seem that each one is as necessary (or not!) as the other. Yes, Waterford is smaller than Galway, but so is its boundary, so what would you expect [/quote]

Because Galway was the last and final centre to get the motorway spec. Your argument is futile for the simple reason if you keep using this argument its not fair, Sligo should of gotten a motorway too.

Waterford in comparison to its size as got more investement that both Galway and Limerick comblined. Not only that but the SE has to Motorway/DCs to Dublin now.

It's only when you compare like with like that you get a true picture of an area's population profile, and that's why I analysed a 25 km circle around each city, rather than relying on political boundaries. I know Dublin is too big for this analysis to be reliable, but Galway, Limerick and Waterford are of similar scale (25 km out puts you well in the countryside), so I stand over my analysis where these three cities are concerned.

I cant believe your dragging that back up.

[Tech3]

After reading the whole book over the last two days, an excellent report on the study of the national road network. It's a must for any road enthusiast. It would take up a lot of time to scan it, 100 pages.

It's worth gathering the OPT 1994-1999 too for earlier schemes that were constructed like the M1 to the Border.

[charlemont]

one of the few things they got right in ireland is the layout of the national primary routes, they connect all our main towns and cities as for the m9 eventually a road would have been needed anyway to carlow so at least it connects these towns on the N9 N10, kilkenny and carlow are relatively large by irish standards so it would have been pointless to follow the old t7 via newross the existing n9 would eventually have to be upgraded anyway . same as in m20 its the best decision to go by mallow and rathluirc .. look these roads arent exactly huge autobahns they are irish motorways for irish traffic, with that horrible concrete barrier inches from the overtaking lane

[Amtmann]

Originally Posted by charlemont

look these roads arent exactly huge autobahns they are irish motorways for irish traffic, with that horrible concrete barrier inches from the overtaking lane

Without wishing to go too off-topic: Not all Autobahns are huge though. Our motorways are as good as if not better than a lot of German motorways. Some German motorways are indeed massive (parts of the A3, the motorway bypass south of Frankfurt, some of the A9), but many Autobahns are very like Irish motorways. And do you know what? I would say that in terms of lining, surfacing and exits/entrances, ours are better. Some Autobahns I've driven on (the A9 through Thuringia) had a dismally bumpy, ancient concrete surface and no emergency lane whatsoever. In addition many Autobahns are seriously congested, choked with "Baustelle" (roadworks), and thousands of drivers tailgate (to within only 2 metres or so) at ridiculous speeds.

[Aidan1]

Sorry, just saw this now.

But yes Aidan, this is about the history of roads policy ...not about actual policy which has been chucked out to quangos so that Dempsey can blame anybody but himself for everything.

Leaving aside the fact that we were talking about the period before Dempsey took over in D/Transport, the fact remains that roads policy, particularly where large scale capital investment is involved, remains very much a matter for the Department and Minister. The NRA are an executive agency, not a policy making one (that role lies with the Minister/Department, under the 1997 Public Sector Management Act). To be absolutely explicit, this means that decisions around which projects go ahead, as well as issues like the overall level of the roads budget and more detailed design/cost options are all matters for the Minister.

It's true to say that Limerick, Galway and Waterford are cities of a similar order of magnitude - they are all small cities in a European sense, but they are of differing scales - the CSO put Limerick (and environs) at over 90,000 people, with Waterford at less than 50k (and that includes the relevant parts of South Kilkenny). Limerick is nearly twice the size of Waterford, in other words. Thats a substantial difference.

[Amtmann]

Originally Posted by Sponge Bob

Any chance they could root out and email someone a PDF or a word document that we can convert to PDF, how hard is that ???

Originally Posted by spacetweek

Furet, any chance of scanning it in for us?

Originally Posted by marmurr1916

Any chance anyone's going to scan and upload a copy to the web?

Originally Posted by Furet

I would of course scan it, but I don't have easy access to a scanner, plus I'm preparing to move abroad for 5 months in two weeks' time, so I'm really busy at the moment. If no one has scanned it by the time I get back, I'll try to get it done - but that won't be until July at the earliest i'm afraid!

Sorry for only just getting round to it now. Unfortunately, I've bad news. I just tried and failed to scan it. My scanner won't save anything to my computer for some reason. Instead it insists on printing each page. For the record, it's 132 pages.

[oharach]

For the record, there are two copies in the National Library, two in Trinity, and two in UCC. Didn't check anywhere else, but if you really want it, it is still around.

[Amtmann]

I've started scanning the Road Needs Study. I'll upload sections one by one as they are too big to upload to Boards as a single document.

[Amtmann]

Chapters 1 and 2 attached.

[marmurr1916]

Interesting statistic from Ch. 2 (2.3.1, p.13 of pdf) showing that only 6% of the National Primary network was dual-carriageway, and only 2.6% was motorway.

What a difference 12 years has made!

[Amtmann]

Chapter 3 attached.

[Amtmann]

Chapters 4 and 5 attached.