[WalterMitty]

Originally Posted by EF

Shouldn't this be encouraged? Develop staff as much as is possible because in the long term the benefits will outweigh the cost.

Again only if its relevant to their work. A lot of the qualifications may not be directly related to their work. A teacher returning to do a masters in english literature and getting paid more when they return to teaching. Doesnt necessarily make them a better secondary teacher, more likely to make them into a college lecturer .
If it is paying for a garda to do advanced first aid or nurses to do extra qualifications that they will use in their jobs then fine.

[EF]

Originally Posted by CDfm

By what measurement?

If you look at the health service you didnt achieve more delivery in terms of people treated by spending more money.It does not translate.

If the public service worked on short term contracts then you would have competition but as it is there is no link between pay and performance or qualifications to service delivery.

What it results in is higher costs as work practices remain the same.

I disagree. Spending on relevant training and education will 99% of the time result in better quality output from staff and the staff will be more motivated with a further knock in in terms of higher quality output.

Things aren't perfect as regard linking pay and performance, especially at the very top of the public sector, but it is improving and better than it used to be.

Originally Posted by WalterMitty

Again only if its relevant to their work. A lot of the qualifications may not be directly related to their work. A teacher returning to do a masters in english literature and getting paid more when they return to teaching. Doesnt necessarily make them a better secondary teacher, more likely to make them into a college lecturer .
If it is paying for a garda to do advanced first aid or nurses to do extra qualifications that they will use in their jobs then fine.

Generally, from my experience, fees are only paid and staff are given time off if they do a course directly relevant to their work. Other courses are done at the employees own expense and time.

[CDfm]

Originally Posted by EF

I disagree. Spending on relevant training and education will 99% of the time result in better quality output from staff and the staff will be more motivated with a further knock in in terms of higher quality output.

Things aren't perfect as regard linking pay and performance, especially at the very top of the public sector, but it is improving and better than it used to be.

But in the Civil Service especially how do you measure performance.

A Senior Civil Servant has no measurement for their performance other than grade or the number of people or budget.

They dont deal with profit or cost cutting so how do you measure them.

When they make mistakes they do not suffer the downside.

[EF]

Originally Posted by CDfm

But in the Civil Service especially how do you measure performance.

A Senior Civil Servant has no measurement for their performance other than grade or the number of people or budget.

They dont deal with profit or cost cutting so how do you measure them.

When they make mistakes they do not suffer the downside.

Well there are statistical records kept generally of output e.g. you can find out the number of passports processed, the number of social welfare claims dealt with, the number of fraudsters detected, land register checks done, discrimination cases investigated, suppliers paid on time, audits successfully completed etc etc.

It is up to management at a more local level to determine if a member of staff is pulling their weight or not & whether they should be put forward for promotion, given an increment, given a warning about their performance in general.

[K-9]

Originally Posted by CDfm

By what measurement?

If you look at the health service you didnt achieve more delivery in terms of people treated by spending more money.It does not translate.

If the public service worked on short term contracts then you would have competition but as it is there is no link between pay and performance or qualifications to service delivery.

What it results in is higher costs as work practices remain the same.

Some areas have improved, more patients are seen and waiting lists are down. I wouldn't say the massive increases in expenditure were a total waste, that would be unfair.

[Nidot]

Originally Posted by K-9

Some areas have improved, more patients are seen and waiting lists are down. I wouldn't say the massive increases in expenditure were a total waste, that would be unfair.

Ok not a total waste, but definitely not all expected increases in services which were expected for the increases in expenditure made.

[CDfm]

Originally Posted by K-9

Some areas have improved, more patients are seen and waiting lists are down. I wouldn't say the massive increases in expenditure were a total waste, that would be unfair.

uh - massive fecking increases like the expenditure on health tripled

wtf are they doing with the money -burning it for fuel

[K-9]

Originally Posted by CDfm

uh - massive fecking increases like the expenditure on health tripled

wtf are they doing with the money -burning it for fuel

On the machine that goes beep and administrators. Sorry for the shameless Monty Python rip off.

[ei.sdraob]

too add flames to the private public war

a picture speaks a thousand words

[CDfm]

Originally Posted by K-9

On the machine that goes beep and administrators. Sorry for the shameless Monty Python rip off.

It cant be administrators -that sounds like a myth to me

i would love to see the actual spend on administrators

i am for getting rid of the department of health cos they do damn all , stripping them of their citizenship and putting them on a flotilla to israel

[GoldenEarring]

Lots of private sector workers who earn handsome salaries are not listed in your graph. Where are the private sector bankers, solicitors,barristers,estate agents,engineers,consultants,company directors,factory owners, doctors, vets, media stars, journalists,etc, etc?

[CDfm]

Originally Posted by GoldenEarring

Lots of private sector workers who earn handsome salaries are not listed in your graph. Where are the private sector bankers, solicitors,barristers,estate agents,engineers,consultants,company directors,factory owners, doctors, vets, media stars, journalists,etc, etc?

Ah Golden Earring get real - you are talking about those working at the top echelons

you are not talking about the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker here.

currently an engineer friend of min who is qualified with 10 years experience is earning 14 euro per hour and it is as much as he can get

those benchmarked in the public service would be earning a lot less if the benchmarks could fasll as well as rise

[paraletic]

Originally Posted by CDfm

Ah Golden Earring get real - you are talking about those working at the top echelons

you are not talking about the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker here.

currently an engineer friend of min who is qualified with 10 years experience is earning 14 euro per hour and it is as much as he can get

those benchmarked in the public service would be earning a lot less if the benchmarks could fasll as well as rise

golden earring has a point,
ie. the professions he listed are OVERPAID, regardless of their persevered high level in our society.
this after all, is alot of the problem that some people have with the public sector employees.

by the way i personally don't think i am over paid,

[CDfm]

Originally Posted by paraletic

golden earring has a point,
ie. the professions he listed are OVERPAID, regardless of their persevered high level in our society.
this after all, is alot of the problem that some people have with the public sector employees.

by the way i personally don't think i am over paid,

i dont think you will find very many high paid contruction engineers, architects, estate agents, or even company directors at the moment.Factory owners -what kitchen or window manufacturer is doing well at the moment.

What is a company -your local plumber could be a director of his own company for legal reasons. Lots of freelance workers have to be company directors for legal reasons.

Solicitors -maybe -and I think the banks will have bonuses restricted.

That still does not explain why public servants should be benchmarked to them and not ordinary joe's.

[thomaspat]

hi
if a absolute variety is in the mix it will work out

cuts are find but it is as good as gossip.