[gandalf]

Originally Posted by Smiegal

Your money going up in line with inflation does not equal getting a raise....

Oh please of course it is. Your wages are being raised? Just because the cost of living goes up it does not and should not automatically entitle anyone to a raise.

Its a combination of can the organisation afford it, do you actually deserve it and other factors. The fact that you and others in the PS has been protected from this actuality for so long means you feel you are entitled to a raise automatically no matter what. Effectively the cost of living has come down in the last two years so in reality by your own logic you should be happy at a pay cut (actually I lie slightly the one area where costs are going up are ones related to government charges).

[Tazz T]

I wonder do these private sector pay cut statistics allow for people who are made redundant and find another similar scale job only to find that the wages are massively lower due to the amount of people looking for work.

I personally know that new vacanices (the odd one or two there is) in my area at my level have wage levels that are more than 20% down on a couple of years ago. Does this count as a wage cut?

I'd say the figures quoted here are vastly unestimated, as the unemployed begin re-enter the workplace at hugely reduced wages.

[Drumpot]

Why would wage cuts or increases in the private secor have anything to do with public service pay ?

You want job security . . you got it . .

You want bench-marked pay not related to performance . . You got it . .

You want the best pension around that many of your fellow workers dont really value . . You got it . .

You want to pick and choose what aspects of private sector life you want and disgard the bits you dont want. . You dont got it . .

By all means, fight your corner and make your points on why you believe you dont deserve paycuts, but you have to understand sometime that there is good reason why paycuts have to happen (and why more will possibly happen). .

The public service union even admitted that there is much room for improvement by suggesting that their members could maintain a high level of service with an extra couple of holidays to ease the pain of a paycut . . I still cannot believe this has not been hammered back in their faces . . If a private company thought its employee's were able to improve their productivity they wouldnt ask them to work with them . . They would make the changes and the employees would have to play ball. . By god if the people in the public service want the same rights as private sector employees , they are welcome to this and many of the other "perks" that comes with being a private sector employee today . .

You see what is forgotten in all this arguements of who gets what and why its unfair that that person got something I didnt, is that every employer has had to readjust its payroll to an affordable level . Everybody except a couple of banks who still feel the need to give increases and bonus's . . But lets not let that disguise the fact that most companies/employers change their budgets to suit their finances . .. If the Irish government didnt make those strict, tough cuts as quickly as they did, the cost to the country could of been much more in the longer term . . This is no comfort to those who had to take the paycuts, but it was the right thing for this country and it was the right thing for the biggest employer of this country to do. . Employers that dont sort out their finances will go under . . That includes the government . . .

If you want to be compared to the private sector, dont think you can pick and choose what aspects of it suit you and ignore the bad bits . .

[K-9]

Some more information from the Small Firms Association (less than 50 employees) who represent 1/2 the Private Sector:

| Irish Examiner

EMPLOYEES at small firms earn an average of just under €35,000 per year, with one-in-four companies saying they plan to cut pay this year.

Almost half of small firms – companies with less than 50 employees – said they cut pay last year by an average of 20%. Just over two-in-five firms cut staff numbers last year.








The Small Firms Association (SFA) annual pay survey also found that one-in-10 employees earn less than €25,000, with close to one -in-seven taking home more than €45,000.

A third of small firms surveyed do not have a pension or sick-pay scheme, while two out of five have health insurance schemes.

One-in-five, meanwhile, pay maternity benefit above Social Welfare, while the average mileage allowance is 72 cent per mile at small firms. Employers said that their main business concern for this year is labour costs.

[paraletic]

Originally Posted by K-9

Some more information from the Small Firms Association (less than 50 employees) who represent 1/2 the Private Sector:

| Irish Examiner

EMPLOYEES at small firms earn an average of just under €35,000 per year, with one-in-four companies saying they plan to cut pay this year.

Almost half of small firms – companies with less than 50 employees – said they cut pay last year by an average of 20%. Just over two-in-five firms cut staff numbers last year.








The Small Firms Association (SFA) annual pay survey also found that one-in-10 employees earn less than €25,000, with close to one -in-seven taking home more than €45,000.

A third of small firms surveyed do not have a pension or sick-pay scheme, while two out of five have health insurance schemes.

One-in-five, meanwhile, pay maternity benefit above Social Welfare, while the average mileage allowance is 72 cent per mile at small firms. Employers said that their main business concern for this year is labour costs.

'with close to one -in-seven taking home more than €45,000.' - thats good money

'that one-in-10 employees earn less than €25,000' - what qualifications do these workers have, i only earn 5k extra (although i do get a shift allowance of 5k) - and i am a hse paramedic with a qualification and a diploma from ucd, 35000(ish) after shift allowance but before deductions, am i over paid?

[K-9]

Originally Posted by paraletic

'with close to one -in-seven taking home more than €45,000.' - thats good money

'that one-in-10 employees earn less than €25,000' - what qualifications do these workers have, i only earn 5k extra (although i do get a shift allowance of 5k) - and i am a hse paramedic with a qualification and a diploma from ucd, 35000(ish) after shift allowance but before deductions, am i over paid?

Yes, but look at the averages in the Public Service:

boards.ie - View Single Post - Public & Private Sector Weekly Earnings Details and Statistics

Of course that also means, 6/7 or about 85% earn under 45k.

Your wage is comparable to the average wage in the SME sector, the biggest sector for employees in the country, with about half the employment in the country.

[bog master]

Originally Posted by paraletic

'with close to one -in-seven taking home more than €45,000.' - thats good money

'that one-in-10 employees earn less than €25,000' - what qualifications do these workers have, i only earn 5k extra (although i do get a shift allowance of 5k) - and i am a hse paramedic with a qualification and a diploma from ucd, 35000(ish) after shift allowance but before deductions, am i over paid?

No one can say whether you are over/underpaid in my opinion. But in the private sector, wages tend to be determined by demand not Union demands. Friend of mine, a plasterer, earned less than the dole last year, prior to that, as self employed he earned up to 1k a week during the boom. Tradesman were in demand. Now he has taken a PAYE job for €400.00 a week net, his dole for him and his partner was just over €300.00, and has to drive 70 miles a day. But he wants to work.

My son with a degree and ACCA qualifications attended several interviews the last 2 months. Starting wage, 20K. Unfortuneately, did not get either, but was happy to work. Two years ago, he would have started at 35k

[paraletic]

Originally Posted by bog master

No one can say whether you are over/underpaid in my opinion. But in the private sector, wages tend to be determined by demand not Union demands. Friend of mine, a plasterer, earned less than the dole last year, prior to that, as self employed he earned up to 1k a week during the boom. Tradesman were in demand. Now he has taken a PAYE job for €400.00 a week net, his dole for him and his partner was just over €300.00, and has to drive 70 miles a day. But he wants to work.

My son with a degree and ACCA qualifications attended several interviews the last 2 months. Starting wage, 20K. Unfortuneately, did not get either, but was happy to work. Two years ago, he would have started at 35k

unfortunatly you have it spot on, wages (especially) in private industry go up and down, so do employment numbers.

i am sorry your son is having trouble getting a good wage/job.

Originally Posted by K-9

Yes, but look at the averages in the Public Service:

boards.ie - View Single Post - Public & Private Sector Weekly Earnings Details and Statistics

Of course that also means, 6/7 or about 85% earn under 45k.

Your wage is comparable to the average wage in the SME sector, the biggest sector for employees in the country, with about half the employment in the country.

i am ok being on the average wage, (although i do pay alot of deductions, but thats a different issue),

i hope they don't take my shift allowance or i'll be down a good chunk.

i might have to quit work and move to cape cod!

[CDfm]

comparing the civil service and private enterprise is really a joke. because what you are getting into is benchmarking against large corporate enterprises such as the banks and maybe some multinational companies.

That isnt the real world

you maybe even benchmark against the likes of aer lingus but dropped from this comparison will be the likes of SR Technics which closed and guys who worked there went from 70 k pa to 200 pw on the dole.

Or engineeers etc who have gone from earning 40-50 euro per hour to 15 euro per hour as contract workers

You are also not benchmarking against commision earning sales people or even casual bar staff etc who are no longer employed

Pubs have closed down so benchmark to that

Benchmark against shops like Hughes and Hughes and D2 qand Vera Moda that have closed down

estate agents earnings -benchmark against that or used car dealers

the self employed have been decimated and anihalated

the basis that the civil service union comparisons use is a bogus spin

the tax revenue that went to pay civil service workers has disappeared and the only way to solve that is for them to live in the real world with the rest of us.

[CDfm]

Originally Posted by bog master

/
My son with a degree and ACCA qualifications attended several interviews the last 2 months. Starting wage, 20K. Unfortuneately, did not get either, but was happy to work. Two years ago, he would have started at 35k

And in the real world he is a hell of a lot more qualified than lots of civil servants

so wage erosion in his area is 43 %

he also is a lot more qualified and has more skills than lots of civil servants

so the skill argument for civil servants is fairly bogus really and a misrepresentation as its like comparing unskilled/semi skilled workers with skilled workers

[K-9]

Originally Posted by CDfm

And in the real world he is a hell of a lot more qualified than lots of civil servants

so wage erosion in his area is 43 %

he also is a lot more qualified and has more skills than lots of civil servants

so the skill argument for civil servants is fairly bogus really and a misrepresentation as its like comparing unskilled/semi skilled workers with skilled workers

In fairness, there was a survey done showing more third level qualifications compared to the Private Sector. Can't find the link as it must be over a year ago, but as as is the nature of these things, it would have Health warnings attached.

If it was the Public Sector as a whole, teachers and nurses would skew the statistics. If it was just the civil service, it would depend on what the comparison was to the Private Sector.

[CDfm]

Originally Posted by K-9

In fairness, there was a survey done showing more third level qualifications compared to the Private Sector. Can't find the link as it must be over a year ago, but as as is the nature of these things, it would have Health warnings attached.

If it was the Public Sector as a whole, teachers and nurses would skew the statistics. If it was just the civil service, it would depend on what the comparison was to the Private Sector.

But thats like benchmarking -they pick the benchmark

[WalterMitty]

Originally Posted by K-9

In fairness, there was a survey done showing more third level qualifications compared to the Private Sector. Can't find the link as it must be over a year ago, but as as is the nature of these things, it would have Health warnings attached.

If it was the Public Sector as a whole, teachers and nurses would skew the statistics. If it was just the civil service, it would depend on what the comparison was to the Private Sector.

unless the 3rd level qualificiations are relavant to their jobs then theyre irrelevant. A clerical officer might have a diploma in childcare or a degree in philosophy but both are largely irrelevant to the job. In private sector the qualification wouldnt merit any extra pay for doing a clerical job but in public sector qualifications almost always equal more pay regardless of how relevan the qualification is . Also its much easier to achieve extra qualifications when working in Public sector as they pay and allow employees off for long periods to do masters etc and they do shorter hours than most private sector so have longer hours to study etc.

[EF]

Originally Posted by WalterMitty

Also its much easier to achieve extra qualifications when working in Public sector as they pay and allow employees off for long periods to do masters etc and they do shorter hours than most private sector so have longer hours to study etc.

Shouldn't this be encouraged? Develop staff as much as is possible because in the long term the benefits will outweigh the cost.

[CDfm]

Originally Posted by EF

Shouldn't this be encouraged? Develop staff as much as is possible because in the long term the benefits will outweigh the cost.

By what measurement?

If you look at the health service you didnt achieve more delivery in terms of people treated by spending more money.It does not translate.

If the public service worked on short term contracts then you would have competition but as it is there is no link between pay and performance or qualifications to service delivery.

What it results in is higher costs as work practices remain the same.