[MG]

The findings could be misinterpreted.
We need to wait for the results of a wider and more detailed report
It leaves important questions unanswered.
Much of the evidence is inconclusive.
The figures are open to other interpretations.
Certain findings are contradictory.
Some of the main conclusions have been questioned. (If they haven't, question them yourself; then they have)
Not really a basis for long term decisions
Not sufficient information on which to base a valid assessment
No reason for any fundamental rethink of existing policy
Broadly speaking, it endorses current practice
They is harbouring a grudge against the public service.

(With apologies to Sir H)

[jimmmy]

Originally Posted by Hydrosylator

It's like they've forgotten who ****ed everything up in the first place.

Government, Financial regulator, Irish Central bank ?

Originally Posted by Hydrosylator

I'm a freelancer, with no safety net of any description, who is happy on a week where I bring in more than I would if I just quit and went on the dole.

Sorry to enlighten you but if you are really a freelancer, you will find it difficult or impossible to get the dole, if you have any means ( eg a property you may a bought / got a mortgage on, even though it may be in negative equity ). I know many self employed earning / getting less that the dole is worth.

[jimmmy]

Originally Posted by MG

The findings could be misinterpreted.
We need to wait for the results of a wider and more detailed report
It leaves important questions unanswered.
Much of the evidence is inconclusive.
The figures are open to other interpretations.
Certain findings are contradictory.
Some of the main conclusions have been questioned. (If they haven't, question them yourself; then they have)
Not really a basis for long term decisions
Not sufficient information on which to base a valid assessment
No reason for any fundamental rethink of existing policy
Broadly speaking, it endorses current practice
They is harbouring a grudge against the public service.

(With apologies to Sir H)

Nicely put.
Every excuse in the world to keep the p.s. and their retirees in the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed for as long as possible.

[Amhran Nua]

Originally Posted by Hydrosylator

I get really pissed off because lately everyone seems to be complaining about public workers on one hand, and the same people then say we have to help the banks. It's like they've forgotten who ****ed everything up in the first place.

Agreed, something has gone very badly wrong with the elected leaders of the country. Some might argue that it went wrong back in 2000 and 2001. The costs to the exchequer must be addressed, but pumping cash into the banks has failed everywhere it has been tried, and it will fail here too. Still, if they get nationalised afterwards at least their profits will be repatriated.

Originally Posted by Hydrosylator

I'm a freelancer, with no safety net of any description, who is happy on a week where I bring in more than I would if I just quit and went on the dole. Two out of three would-be clients can't afford to pay me, unless I work for sweatshop wages.

Same as myself so.

[ardmacha]

Education is criminally under-funded, and always has been. I went to a school that was 25% prefabs, finished in pre-tiger years. That school is now about 60% prefabs.

Which raises the general point, why do we have a public finance crisis? Education is an important part of any government's expenditure, but the money was not spent here even in proportion to other countries. We must be spending more somewhere than other nations do or taxing less if we have a public finance crisis.

[jimmmy]

Originally Posted by ardmacha

Which raises the general point, why do we have a public finance crisis? Education is an important part of any government's expenditure, but the money was not spent here even in proportion to other countries. We must be spending more somewhere than other nations do or taxing less if we have a public finance crisis.

True enough. I remember showing statistics on another thread about how the Nordic countries spend more on education, but they have better facilities, and pay their staff less, which is the important thing. There is a comparison table actually on the 3rd last page of this months Business Plus magazine, comparing international pay of teachers.

[P. Breathnach]

Originally Posted by jimmmy

Ah, the infamous p.s. pension levy introduced by the govt during the last year. Surprised you had not heard of it.

Anybody who participates here hears about it repeatedly, usually from you. It is dishonest to represent it as the only contribution public servants make towards their pensions.

Its not coming out of retired p.s. peoples pensions ...

That looks like you are getting personal -- again.

[jimmmy]

Originally Posted by P. Breathnach

Anybody who participates here hears about it repeatedly, usually from you.

Then why ask ?

Originally Posted by P. Breathnach

It is dishonest to represent it as the only contribution public servants make towards their pensions.

Nobody said it was "only contribution public servants make towards their pensions."

[dearg lady]

Originally Posted by jimmmy

Nobody said it was "only contribution public servants make towards their pensions."

Originally Posted by jimmmy

That 7% is the best value you ever paid.

You implied it Jimmmy, and you know it, you're smart enough to realise how that woudl be read.
Did you ever let people know what you do yourself Jimmmy? What sort of hit has your personal pay taken? I sincerely hope you're not one of those people who wants everyone else but themselves to suffer.

[P. Breathnach]

Originally Posted by jimmmy

Then why ask ?

In an effort to get you to be fair. Is that a vain hope?

Nobody said it was "only contribution public servants make towards their pensions."

What dearg lady said.

[jimmmy]

OK, deary lady, if the govt tomorrow said to you they are going to scrap the p.s. pension and the levy ( or levies as the case may be ) , would that be ok with you ? If you think the pension levy is more of an expense than its worth, would you be prepared to pay the same contributions and tax as the private sector and take care of your own pension arrangements / get the same deal as them ? I think not. If you think so, why not ask your colleagues / get your union to press the govt to drop the whole public service pension arrangement + levy from not on, and in the future only pay pensions on the basis of money / contributions received up until now ?
As others have said before, anyone from the private sector would love to be paying it.

As regards what "sort of hit has my personal pay has taken", dearg lady, I do not ask others personal questions like that. However I can say I earn a lot less than years ago, and the provision I made for my pension has also has suffered in a very big way. Nobody pays me to post , during these office hours, unlike some others on this board.

[jimmmy]

Originally Posted by P. Breathnach

In an effort to get you to be fair. Is that a vain hope?

You ask what was the 7% and I explain to you about the p.s. levy. Is it fair ? No. As Eddie Hobbs said on RTE TV last Monday night week, p.s. pensions are still massively subsidised eg a Garda he said, should be paying 48% of his salary if he was to be paying the full economic cost of his pension.
Do not forget - as you very well know - there are many public sector people retired today with pensions worth seven figures ( over a million ), who only contributed in to a very small part of that. Its one of the reasons our govt is borrowing approx 26 billion this year, at the last count, to be repaid with interest by our children + grandchildren.

[dearg lady]

Originally Posted by jimmmy

OK, deary lady, if the govt tomorrow said to you they are going to scrap the p.s. pension and the levy ( or levies as the case may be ) , would that be ok with you ?

Please see what I posted already on this thread

Originally Posted by dearg lady

I think the best idea would be to increase state pension, and have everyone pay into that. It would be enough to live on, but for people who want to set further amounts aside for the future, they could pay into a private pension scheme available to public and private sector employees. Limited tax breaks on this, up to a certain amount per week/month NOT % of pay.

Originally Posted by jimmmy

If you think the pension levy is more of an expense than its worth, would you be prepared to pay the same contributions and tax as the private sector and take care of your own pension arrangements / get the same deal as them ? I think not. If you think so, why not ask your colleagues / get your union to press the govt to drop the whole public service pension arrangement + levy from not on, and in the future only pay pensions on the basis of money / contributions received up until now ?
As others have said before, anyone from the private sector would love to be paying it.

Again, refer to above. I'm well aware the public sector pension is excellent, my point was, in the interest of reasonable debate, you can surely see that it's not all positives.

Originally Posted by jimmmy

As regards what "sort of hit has my personal pay has taken", dearg lady, I do not ask others personal questions like that. However I can say I earn a lot less than years ago, and the provision I made for my pension has also has suffered in a very big way. Nobody pays me to post , during these office hours, unlike some others on this board.

That's fair enough Jimmmy, but I don't think you should bring personal details about others into this thread and others if you are not willing to be honest about yourself. I know you didn't ask for this info from others, but it still shouldn't be brought up in a snide way which you often resort to.

[Hydrosylator]

Originally Posted by jimmmy

Government, Financial regulator, Irish Central bank ?

Banks. Public Enemy No 1. The government didn't catch them at the time. If I go out and stab someone, is it the fault of the gardaí?

Originally Posted by jimmmy

Sorry to enlighten you but if you are really a freelancer, you will find it difficult or impossible to get the dole, if you have any means ( eg a property you may a bought / got a mortgage on, even though it may be in negative equity ). I know many self employed earning / getting less that the dole is worth.

Jobseekers Allowance. It's means tested, and I was in the process of being approved last year when I had the good fortune of a one month contract.

On a week where you have work, no dole.
On a week where you don't, better than regular dole.
On a week where you have some work, you get dole for the applicable days you don't have work.

I know a few freelancer's who use it. Like me, they have no means to speak of. Works best for sole traders I think. I've put it off so far, it's my last resort, and I might not get it.
I recommend any freelancer in dire financial straits to at least try for it though.

[Idbatterim]

this whole arguing backwards and forwards about the pay is ridiculous! what price do they put on...

1. job security
2. more holidays
3. less hours
4. the majoirty of jobs in the PS being way less stressful & pressurised than the private sector.

there are probably even more points, but they would be the main ones, when you factor in all of that, their pay as has been suggested by economists and posters on boards, should be atleast, atleast 10% less than private, probably more like 20%. If we really want to talk about fair!