Irish times journalist says that Irish fee paying schools not elitist !!!

jonsnow · 29-09-2009, 12:04

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...255433096.html

Pretty nauseating stuff.Maintains that Clongowes is populated by the "sons and daughters of ordinary hardworking people", and lone parents-although she does admit that it costs 16,000 a year.If it wasn,t some kind of elite school why spend that kind of dosh so!!!.

this is so typical of some of our elite in Ireland.They view themselves as ordinary and hardworking and see themselves as having got ahead purely by their own hard work and talents-never acknowledging all the old boy and old girl networks that have protected and helped them to success their entire lives.

"Am I giving my children an advantage! I,m trying my hardest"

A PARENT'S VIEW: Those of us who opt to send their children to fee-paying schools should not be demonised – we have a right to choose the best option for our children, argues ORLAITH CARMODY
Some people describe the kind of school I’ve chosen for my three sons as “fee-paying”, implying that I pay for their education. In fact I don’t. The State does that, as it is has undertaken to pay the salaries of teachers in second-level schools to a defined ratio, based on the number of students in the school.
I pay for my three sons’ accommodation and supervision at school, their books, sports, music lessons, tours and all the other bits and pieces that every parent of teenagers knows about.
After a lot of thought, I have deliberately chosen this kind of education, in a school with a Jesuit tradition, because I believe it will help to bring out the best in my boys, and hopefully teach them something about giving back to society. This is my right as a parent.
Since September 1st, the Department of Education and Science has increased the ratio of pupils to teachers in State-run second-level schools from 18 pupils per teacher to 19. Times are tough, and bigger class sizes are inevitable. For fee-paying schools, the medicine was even harsher: one teacher for every 20 pupils.
This is the first time since 1967 that a distinction of this nature has been introduced to the system, and it will affect 28,000 students in 55 so-called fee-paying schools around the country.
Things could get worse. The Irish Times recently reported how the Department of Finance has recommended a ratio of one teacher to 38 pupils in fee-paying schools.
I believe this singling out of the fee-paying sector is blatant discrimination.
My children have the same right to the provision of teaching services as every other child in the State, regardless of whether I choose to have them educated at a local school, with an expectation of an informal annual “voluntary contribution” from me; or at a school with a formal annual contribution that I choose to pay, out of my after-tax income, for additional educational supports.
The bottom line here is that pupils educated “privately” or at fee-paying schools currently cost the State much less than those educated at non-fee-paying schools, so it would appear that the Department of Finance is engaged in a spot of economic nonsense.
Close down private schools tomorrow and all these children land into the State system looking for classroom accommodation, bus transport and per-capita grants, all of which will have to be funded by the taxpayer at enormous expense. This will be on top of the estimated €100 million the Department of Education and Science already spends on teachers’ salaries in fee-paying schools.
Memo to the Department: These teachers will have to be paid, irrespective of the kind of school in which they teach.
The sole alternative is to remove State support, leaving a few, very elite schools with prohibitive fee levels.
In my view, our fee-paying school sector is not, in any sense, elitist. Am I giving my children an advantage? Make no mistake about it: I’m trying my hardest.
My grandmother was a teacher sin a rural primary school who had been lectured by Eamon de Valera at college in Carysfort. She often concealed above-age children from the school inspector; children of 13 or 14 who she had persuaded, often with great difficulty, to stay in school for a seventh or even an eighth class, knowing that it was the only education they would ever get.
A determined widow, she coached her daughter, my mother, to win a scholarship to Monaghan’s Louis Convent in the 1940s. My mother then coached me to win a scholarship to Mount Anville in the 1970s, and despite not being able to go there, I have that all-for-education tradition coursing in my veins.
Now I run the risk of a double “elitist” charge, because not only have I chosen a school with a particular ethos for my sons, but one that is boarding as well. But you don’t lightly choose a school that costs €16,000 a year. You know exactly the cost to you, in so many ways.
But it is worth all the hours their Dad and I work because of the independent, grounded, thinking individuals who I believe will emerge at the far end, with the ambition and hopefully the ability to make a difference. At the school, Clongowes Wood College in Co Kildare, they call it becoming “Men for Others”, and I see it demonstrated every single time I’m there.
A friend of mine at the school, a lone parent, gets very irate when people describe these schools as elitist. She works every hour in the day to pay for her son’s keep, but is happy to do so because of how he has grown over the past few years. She says that it is her choice to work hard, pay her taxes and do the best she can for her son, rather than “cream the State’’ (her expression) for a house and various allowances, which she figures would probably leave her better off.
I have never met a spoiled brat at the school, either pupil or parent, only people who, like myself, value children and their education above all else. We also value justice, and would like to see the departments of Education and Science and Finance respect the 1967 Education Act, which promised equal access to teaching services for all children.
We don’t have elite schools in this country, as they do across the water. We have privately-managed schools where education is provided by the State, and where after that parents choose to have a particular ethos, Catholic, Protestant or other, taught to their children at their own expense. They are populated by the sons and daughters of ordinary, hard-working people exercising their democratic right to choose.

Mr.David · 29-09-2009, 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonsnow

If it wasn,t some kind of elite school why spend that kind of dosh so!!!.

So that your kids could learn how to use question marks?

steviecakes · 29-09-2009, 12:19

Doesn't sound too un-reasonable an argument to me

**The_Minister** · 29-09-2009, 12:26

I don't see the problem.

The State pays for the basic education of the students (teachers etc), and parents fees provide the rest on top of that.

Are those children supposed to be denied those facilities just because others are?

Rojomcdojo · 29-09-2009, 12:27

I know a fair few people and their friends who went to private schools.

Their parents might think the schools are "elite" and all that, but the kids normally couldn't give a toss. Talking to your average fee-paying school graduate you wouldn't have a clue that they went to one.

Johnny Weasel · 29-09-2009, 12:29

Maybe the schools should introduce less elitist sports in to the facility. I'm sure the same arguments wouldn't be made if baseball and ice hockey were played and not rugby.

leeroybrown · 29-09-2009, 12:34

The OP should take their blinkers off. Regardless of their personal opinion of private schools the children who attend them are all entitled to the same level of state sponsored education as children in other schools. Treating them differently would be nauseating.

I'm sure that pretty much every parent in this country is putting their hand in their pocket to pay for their child's free education. Books, heating supplements, maintenance supplements, trips all end up coming out of parents pockets. The parents of the kids in these private schools are just taking it a bit further. Some of them just do it to get their kids out of their way for the school terms. Most of the people I know that went to a private school (I didn't) were the children of two hard working parents with decent jobs.

cronin_j · 29-09-2009, 12:37

Went to a fee paying school myself, Im hardly elitist!
My father was a mechanic, my mam was/is a housewife (or homemaker as they like to say lol), hard working and defo working class family!

Most of the people that went with me were from one parent families etc. No snobs in with us at all in fact. I suggest OP that you may not tar us all with the same brush! My dad wanted to give me the best education that i could get to give me a good headstart in life, nothing wrong with that and in fact isnt that what all parents want for their kids regardless if they have the money to send kids to a fee paying school or not!

I know id break my balls to give my kids the very best i can.

chopperbyrne · 29-09-2009, 12:41

I'd love to be able to spend €48,000 a year after tax and still live comfortably too.

**The_Minister** · 29-09-2009, 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by chopperbyrne

I'd love to be able to spend €48,000 a year after tax and still live comfortably too.

Where do you get that figure from?
Most fee-paying schools are around €5,000 a year, none are €48,000.

Pighead · 29-09-2009, 12:45

You're a snob OP!. An inverted snob maybe, but a snob all the same. You don't like it when you see Pighead cycle past you on his shiny new BMX. "He's such a show off" you grumble. You hate it when you see Terrry buy the best beer in the off license. "Hope it chokes you" you sneer"

Instead of directing hatred towards the people who are paying that little bit extra for hopefully that little bit more quality why don't you open a bicycle shop or an off license and benefit from the people who are making you so bitter, jealous and angry?

chopperbyrne · 29-09-2009, 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Minister

Where do you get that figure from?
Most fee-paying schools are around €5,000 a year, none are €48,000.

The person in the article mentioned that it cost €16,000 a year for that school and that her three sons were attending.

I may have went to a lowly public school, but I can multiply 16,000 by 3.

Bambi · 29-09-2009, 12:46

Quote:

because I believe it will help to bring out the best in my boys, and hopefully teach them something about giving back to society. This is my right as a parent.

lol and make sure that they're a step above the plebs.

bluewolf · 29-09-2009, 12:51

They DO want the best for their kids. Would you prefer if they were rolling around in money and refused to provide for their families as best they could?

As long as it's not used as a status symbol in and of itself and the kids don't grow up thinking just having gone to a fee paying school means they're great, I see no problem.
I liked the article myself.

Cool Mo D · 29-09-2009, 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by chopperbyrne

The person in the article mentioned that it cost €16,000 a year for that school and that her three sons were attending.

I may have went to a lowly public school, but I can multiply 16,000 by 3.

Maybe you should learn how to divide 16,000 by three?

It looks clear from context that she's paying 16,000 a year for the three of them.

29-09-2009, 12:04	#1
jonsnow Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 211 Adverts \| Friends	Irish times journalist says that Irish fee paying schools not elitist !!! http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...255433096.html Pretty nauseating stuff.Maintains that Clongowes is populated by the "sons and daughters of ordinary hardworking people", and lone parents-although she does admit that it costs 16,000 a year.If it wasn,t some kind of elite school why spend that kind of dosh so!!!. this is so typical of some of our elite in Ireland.They view themselves as ordinary and hardworking and see themselves as having got ahead purely by their own hard work and talents-never acknowledging all the old boy and old girl networks that have protected and helped them to success their entire lives. "Am I giving my children an advantage! I,m trying my hardest" A PARENT'S VIEW: Those of us who opt to send their children to fee-paying schools should not be demonised – we have a right to choose the best option for our children, argues ORLAITH CARMODY Some people describe the kind of school I’ve chosen for my three sons as “fee-paying”, implying that I pay for their education. In fact I don’t. The State does that, as it is has undertaken to pay the salaries of teachers in second-level schools to a defined ratio, based on the number of students in the school. I pay for my three sons’ accommodation and supervision at school, their books, sports, music lessons, tours and all the other bits and pieces that every parent of teenagers knows about. After a lot of thought, I have deliberately chosen this kind of education, in a school with a Jesuit tradition, because I believe it will help to bring out the best in my boys, and hopefully teach them something about giving back to society. This is my right as a parent. Since September 1st, the Department of Education and Science has increased the ratio of pupils to teachers in State-run second-level schools from 18 pupils per teacher to 19. Times are tough, and bigger class sizes are inevitable. For fee-paying schools, the medicine was even harsher: one teacher for every 20 pupils. This is the first time since 1967 that a distinction of this nature has been introduced to the system, and it will affect 28,000 students in 55 so-called fee-paying schools around the country. Things could get worse. The Irish Times recently reported how the Department of Finance has recommended a ratio of one teacher to 38 pupils in fee-paying schools. I believe this singling out of the fee-paying sector is blatant discrimination. My children have the same right to the provision of teaching services as every other child in the State, regardless of whether I choose to have them educated at a local school, with an expectation of an informal annual “voluntary contribution” from me; or at a school with a formal annual contribution that I choose to pay, out of my after-tax income, for additional educational supports. The bottom line here is that pupils educated “privately” or at fee-paying schools currently cost the State much less than those educated at non-fee-paying schools, so it would appear that the Department of Finance is engaged in a spot of economic nonsense. Close down private schools tomorrow and all these children land into the State system looking for classroom accommodation, bus transport and per-capita grants, all of which will have to be funded by the taxpayer at enormous expense. This will be on top of the estimated €100 million the Department of Education and Science already spends on teachers’ salaries in fee-paying schools. Memo to the Department: These teachers will have to be paid, irrespective of the kind of school in which they teach. The sole alternative is to remove State support, leaving a few, very elite schools with prohibitive fee levels. In my view, our fee-paying school sector is not, in any sense, elitist. Am I giving my children an advantage? Make no mistake about it: I’m trying my hardest. My grandmother was a teacher sin a rural primary school who had been lectured by Eamon de Valera at college in Carysfort. She often concealed above-age children from the school inspector; children of 13 or 14 who she had persuaded, often with great difficulty, to stay in school for a seventh or even an eighth class, knowing that it was the only education they would ever get. A determined widow, she coached her daughter, my mother, to win a scholarship to Monaghan’s Louis Convent in the 1940s. My mother then coached me to win a scholarship to Mount Anville in the 1970s, and despite not being able to go there, I have that all-for-education tradition coursing in my veins. Now I run the risk of a double “elitist” charge, because not only have I chosen a school with a particular ethos for my sons, but one that is boarding as well. But you don’t lightly choose a school that costs €16,000 a year. You know exactly the cost to you, in so many ways. But it is worth all the hours their Dad and I work because of the independent, grounded, thinking individuals who I believe will emerge at the far end, with the ambition and hopefully the ability to make a difference. At the school, Clongowes Wood College in Co Kildare, they call it becoming “Men for Others”, and I see it demonstrated every single time I’m there. A friend of mine at the school, a lone parent, gets very irate when people describe these schools as elitist. She works every hour in the day to pay for her son’s keep, but is happy to do so because of how he has grown over the past few years. She says that it is her choice to work hard, pay her taxes and do the best she can for her son, rather than “cream the State’’ (her expression) for a house and various allowances, which she figures would probably leave her better off. I have never met a spoiled brat at the school, either pupil or parent, only people who, like myself, value children and their education above all else. We also value justice, and would like to see the departments of Education and Science and Finance respect the 1967 Education Act, which promised equal access to teaching services for all children. We don’t have elite schools in this country, as they do across the water. We have privately-managed schools where education is provided by the State, and where after that parents choose to have a particular ethos, Catholic, Protestant or other, taught to their children at their own expense. They are populated by the sons and daughters of ordinary, hard-working people exercising their democratic right to choose. Last edited by jonsnow; 29-09-2009 at 19:51.

29-09-2009, 12:26	#4
The_Minister Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The Capital City - Dublin Posts: 7,863 Adverts \| Friends Mod: Dexter, Economics, Expand Your Horizons, Eyeglasses & Contact Lens & Eyecare, UCD	I don't see the problem. The State pays for the basic education of the students (teachers etc), and parents fees provide the rest on top of that. Are those children supposed to be denied those facilities just because others are? __________________ Why I love boards Emo's burn easily "once upon a midnight dreary, while i pron surfed, weak and weary, over many a strange and spurious site of ' hot xxx galore'. While i clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning, and my heart was filled with mourning, mourning for my dear amour, " 'Tis not possible!", i muttered, " give me back my free hardcore!"..... quoth the server, 404."

29-09-2009, 12:41	#9
chopperbyrne Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Tallaght, Dublin 24. Posts: 4,408 Adverts \| Friends	I'd love to be able to spend €48,000 a year after tax and still live comfortably too. __________________ www.shamrockrovers.ie I don't think outside the box, I live outside the box! chopperbyrne: Official Confused Lumberjack of The Nocturnal Forum

29-09-2009, 12:45	#11
Pighead sucks at stalking Join Date: May 2002 Location: Dundalk Posts: 8,126 Adverts \| Friends	You're a snob OP!. An inverted snob maybe, but a snob all the same. You don't like it when you see Pighead cycle past you on his shiny new BMX. "He's such a show off" you grumble. You hate it when you see Terrry buy the best beer in the off license. "Hope it chokes you" you sneer" Instead of directing hatred towards the people who are paying that little bit extra for hopefully that little bit more quality why don't you open a bicycle shop or an off license and benefit from the people who are making you so bitter, jealous and angry? __________________ The Suede Song The Happy Song The Lovely Song

29-09-2009, 12:51	#14
bluewolf Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 5,792 Adverts \| Friends	They DO want the best for their kids. Would you prefer if they were rolling around in money and refused to provide for their families as best they could? As long as it's not used as a status symbol in and of itself and the kids don't grow up thinking just having gone to a fee paying school means they're great, I see no problem. I liked the article myself. __________________ Who stole the cookies from the cookie jar? I DONT KNOW SO IT MUST BE GOD lose/find; loose/tight

29-09-2009, 12:19	#3
steviecakes Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 785 Adverts \| Friends	Doesn't sound too un-reasonable an argument to me

29-09-2009, 12:27	#5
Rojomcdojo Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,114 Adverts \| Friends	I know a fair few people and their friends who went to private schools. Their parents might think the schools are "elite" and all that, but the kids normally couldn't give a toss. Talking to your average fee-paying school graduate you wouldn't have a clue that they went to one.

29-09-2009, 12:29	#6
Johnny Weasel Banned Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Dublin Posts: 73 Adverts \| Friends	Maybe the schools should introduce less elitist sports in to the facility. I'm sure the same arguments wouldn't be made if baseball and ice hockey were played and not rugby.

29-09-2009, 12:34	#7
leeroybrown Registered User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Galway City Posts: 5,965 Adverts \| Friends	The OP should take their blinkers off. Regardless of their personal opinion of private schools the children who attend them are all entitled to the same level of state sponsored education as children in other schools. Treating them differently would be nauseating. I'm sure that pretty much every parent in this country is putting their hand in their pocket to pay for their child's free education. Books, heating supplements, maintenance supplements, trips all end up coming out of parents pockets. The parents of the kids in these private schools are just taking it a bit further. Some of them just do it to get their kids out of their way for the school terms. Most of the people I know that went to a private school (I didn't) were the children of two hard working parents with decent jobs.

29-09-2009, 12:37	#8
cronin_j Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 361 Adverts \| Friends	Went to a fee paying school myself, Im hardly elitist! My father was a mechanic, my mam was/is a housewife (or homemaker as they like to say lol), hard working and defo working class family! Most of the people that went with me were from one parent families etc. No snobs in with us at all in fact. I suggest OP that you may not tar us all with the same brush! My dad wanted to give me the best education that i could get to give me a good headstart in life, nothing wrong with that and in fact isnt that what all parents want for their kids regardless if they have the money to send kids to a fee paying school or not! I know id break my balls to give my kids the very best i can.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode