What's my next logical "gear upgrade"?

[ZV Yoda]

Hi folks,

I'm a home studio user with about 18 months “learn as you go” experience recording & mixing in PT LE. My gear is listed below. I’m trying to figure out the next logical upgrade to my set up. I play drums, guitar, one fingered keyboard & do questionable vocals.

First, the room… I track & mix in the same room – it’s is only 11ft x 11ft x 7ft high. I’ve treated the room as best I can – large corner bass traps, cloud above the kit & a wooden floor. So, the room sounds pretty OK (given the dimensions)… but I doubt if I can do a whole lot more to improve the acoustics.

I have a decent drum kit & guitars.

Micing the kit - through the 4 x 003r channels I have a matched pair of Rode NT5 overheads plus an SM57 (snare top) & AKG D112 (6 inches outside the kick). Through the ADA8000 I run 2 x SM57s (snare bottom, inside kick) plus 3 x cheap Thomann tom mics on the toms.

I’ve spent a lot of time playing around with mic placement & now have what I think is a good stereo image in the O/Hs. The closed mics do the job & I generally mix the O/Hs almost level with the closed mics. The kit is panned 65%:65%.

I DI my Highway 1 Tele directly into the 003r & then use the IK Amplitube guitar sims as required. I DI & mic my Taylor semi-acoustic with one of the NT5s – both via the 003r. For vox, I tend to use an SM57 via the 003r too. I don’t have/use a guitar amp.

Overall, I’m least happy with the drum sound. It just doesn’t have any real presence – although I can make some progress using processing & augmenting the snare & kick with samples.

So, my question is this – if you were in my position & wanted to make the next upgrade to your set up… what would you do? My current budget is about €500 (new or 2nd hand) but can be flexible depending on suggestions. I’m thinking either replacing the tom mics (with maybe 3 x SM57s or E904s) or possibly trading the ADA8000 for an M-Audio Profire 2626. I know drum/guitar/singing lessons would probably make more sense, but there ya go...

Thanks!

Hardware
20" iMac 2Ghz Intel C2D 4Gb, 003 rack, Behringer ADA 8000, Command 8, Axiom 61, 20" LG LCD screen
Maxtor OneTouch4 FW/750Gb/16Mb/7200rpm (audio/session drive)
Medion 750Gb SATA/USB2/16MB/7200RPM (back up drive)

Software
OSX 10.5.7, PTLE 8.0.1, Miroslav Philharmonic Classik, Massey Tape Sat, Massey DTM
SampleTank 2.5L, T-RackS 1.3, T-Racks DeLuxe 3.1, Classik Studio Reverb, Amplitube 2 Live & Duo, Ampeg SVX UNO

[Seziertisch]

Although I have no huge personal first hand experience of this, the general consensus with drum recording and particularly rock drum recordings is that good pres (API, Neve etc.) that you can drive a bit really bring something to the table. For €500 I don't know if there is a whole pile out there. You could also look into specific drum replacement software (like Drumagog) to augment your recordings.

In terms of electric guitar, a tube amp of some sort (doesn't have to be particularly big) with a good quality 12" speaker would be worth a look. I have messed around with quite a few of the amp sims and a 57 infront of a reasonable amp generally produces more realistic sounding results.

In terms of vocals, there is probably a mic out there that will work better than a 57 on your voice. Whether it is 500 EUR or less is another question. You might get lucky and find that a more affordable large diaphragm condenser works well on your voice as well as on acoustic guitar.

[FarnkSpatula]

A Shure SM7B might be worth a look...very versatile

[PaulBrewer]

I would think that the pres are the weak link though I also think there are many mics better suited to overheads that NT5s which can be quite 'barky'.

The Audient ASP008 with the adat out option will be outside your Euro 500 budget but gives a hell of a bang for buck.
To my ears the Audient way outperforms it's price point.

I can't see that any 8 chan pre sub E500 is going to make an improvement.

Bypassing the not particularly impressive digi 003 mic pres should raise the game for you pretty significantly

http://www.audient.com/audient/product/asp008

PMI and Warren a Claycastle Studio, both of whom post here, both own them, in fact Warren is quoted on Audient's site.

Here's an artist that parts of were recorded with the ASP (and mixed through the Audient Sumo)

http://www.myspace.com/glenbaker



If you're interested in trying one PM me.

[ZV Yoda]

Thanks for the replies so far..

Originally Posted by Seziertisch

Although I have no huge personal first hand experience of this, the general consensus with drum recording and particularly rock drum recordings is that good pres (API, Neve etc.) that you can drive a bit really bring something to the table. For €500 I don't know if there is a whole pile out there. You could also look into specific drum replacement software (like Drumagog) to augment your recordings.

In terms of electric guitar, a tube amp of some sort (doesn't have to be particularly big) with a good quality 12" speaker would be worth a look. I have messed around with quite a few of the amp sims and a 57 infront of a reasonable amp generally produces more realistic sounding results.

In terms of vocals, there is probably a mic out there that will work better than a 57 on your voice. Whether it is 500 EUR or less is another question. You might get lucky and find that a more affordable large diaphragm condenser works well on your voice as well as on acoustic guitar.

Yeah, seems to me that the pres are the current weak link, but whether or nor I’ll get a worthwhile improvement for €500 is a good question. Hadn’t thought about a guitar amp – I’m no great shakes on guitar anyway – but I think some of the sims sound quite good. I might look into some options for amps.

Originally Posted by PaulBrewer

I would think that the pres are the weak link though I also think there are many mics better suited to overheads that NT5s which can be quite 'barky'.

The Audient ASP008 with the adat out option will be outside your Euro 500 budget but gives a hell of a bang for buck.
To my ears the Audient way outperforms it's price point.

I can't see that any 8 chan pre sub E500 is going to make an improvement.

Bypassing the not particularly impressive digi 003 mic pres should raise the game for you pretty significantly

If you're interested in trying one PM me.

Thanks Paul… I went with the N T5s based on advice here originally. I’m happy with them – in fact Dadumtish and I did a comparison of the NT5s vs. his Oktavas (012s I think)… while the Oktavas had a bit more presence, they were slightly duller, so in my room, the NT5s work better for me.

That ASP008 looks nice, but it’s about 2x my budget, (unless I picked one up 2nd hand) .

At the minute, I’m thinking that upgrading the tom mics might be the way to go (anyway, it would seem to be a shame shelling out up to a grand on the ASP008 if I was still micing the toms with those Thomann yokes)… though Seziertisch has me thinking about guitar amps too…

Any thoughts on the Profire 2626... or maybe the Octopre LE?... both were suggested as possible upgrades for the Behringer

[Seziertisch]

In terms of a front end upgrade the Focusrite ISA One might also be worth a look. I haven't used it, but it has gotten good reviews and it does have a digital card option that would probably be a step (or a number of steps) up from the Behringer.

In terms of guitar amps within your price range, if you could hold on for another couple of hundred € your choice would greatly increase, though it you went second hand you would probably find something quite nice of €500

[PaulBrewer]

Having heard the Octopre LE I think it's dirt !

[dav nagle]

Originally Posted by ZV Yoda

Hi folks,

I'm a home studio user with about 18 months “learn as you go” experience
Hardware
20" iMac 2Ghz Intel C2D 4Gb, 003 rack, Behringer ADA 8000, Command 8, Axiom 61, 20" LG LCD screen
Maxtor OneTouch4 FW/750Gb/16Mb/7200rpm (audio/session drive)
Medion 750Gb SATA/USB2/16MB/7200RPM (back up drive)

Software
OSX 10.5.7, PTLE 8.0.1, Miroslav Philharmonic Classik, Massey Tape Sat, Massey DTM
SampleTank 2.5L, T-RackS 1.3, T-Racks DeLuxe 3.1, Classik Studio Reverb, Amplitube 2 Live & Duo, Ampeg SVX UNO

Well done Yoda looks like you are coming along very well with that setup, put the money in the bank and save up for a piece of kit that will last you your lifetime.

[DaDumTish]

just to add my two cents

1/ after 2 years of mucking about on the drum recording ive decided that recording the headed drums at home , is not worth the hassle - i get pretty good results but I want great results.

2/ so im going to get a good trigger set up , either vdrum pads or practise silent kit with triggers - and record the pads via a drum module into the studio - and in some cases ( if the module dont cut it ) replace the sound with pro samples - using drum tracker to convert the wavs to midi .

OR

totally deaden down the kit with too slack tuning or too high tuning, foam in the drums etc - and just pick up the attack with mics - and use this to trigger samples in the DAW .( again using drum tracker )


3/ i am going to still record the cymbals live , while playing the pads - note i use a very good set of mics and a good pre for this ( josephson c42 and pacifica preamp )


i can then jiggery pokery sub mixes etc to recreate a cohesive sounding kit in a space of my choosing artificially .

its the same really as having a close miked dead room setup.

YODA i will let you know how it goes - its goona be fun
im going to silence the kit first and see how that goes


recently - i sold alot of attic based gear and got a secondhand mesa boogie f50 with hotplate and a stingray HH for bass - so this has imporved things immensly.
i also stripped and rebuilt my strat of paint and hardware , and put new hardware on it - also great result.
all in the search for a pro tone !



i really think you should have a least one great stereo pre and one great pair of mics .

[kfoltman]

Originally Posted by ZV Yoda

I’m thinking either replacing the tom mics (with maybe 3 x SM57s or E904s)

I don't have any experience with Thomann's brand mics, but if they're as good as their cheap headphones, then replacing them with anything better makes a lot of sense. Did you try to record a bunch of hits on a single tom with SM57 *and* a Thomann mike, on two separate tracks, and A/B between them? This may not get you the full picture, but might at least let you tell if those mikes are s***e or not.

It's hard to upgrade your weakest link when you aren't sure what really IS your weakest link. I think you really need to narrow down your "area of interest" before looking for gear options. Are you happy with your guitar sound? If you are, how much of improvement will you get from investing a grand in a new guitar amp?

Can you rent some gear (a preamp, mikes, whatever) for a test?

Probably obvious, but... did you try changing your mic-to-preamp input assignment between 003 and ADA? For example, something I'd try is to plug both snare mics to the same preamp box to avoid phase issues - these two A/D converters may have slightly different latency due to different converter chips used, leading to subtle phase shifts. Phase difference between tom and kick won't matter. But the same between top and bottom of the snare may cause ugly cancellation problems in some instances.

Originally Posted by ZV Yoda

I know drum/guitar/singing lessons would probably make more sense

The only "but" allowed in sentences like the one above is "but it depends on how good the teacher is". ;-)

[studiorat]

Thomann mic's are pretty good. I'm a fan of the ribbon mic and small mic that looks like a test mic, not too sure what it's called. The thing is they don't last, they break very easily. A shure SM-7 is also an excellent investment.

The ADA8000 is great value for the money. Especially as it does DA conversion too. I'd suggest maybe a Mackie VLZ pro or something like that so you can mix through it too. Why not get some outboard FX? A some compressors of a Lexicon or something?

It really depends on what you want to do with the product after it's recorded as to whether you want to go all out and spend €1500 on a mic pre convertor like the Audient. Personally, I'd go after something like the API 2 channel jobbie and and do any serious multitrackingwith drums etc. in a professional studio.

[PaulBrewer]

Originally Posted by studiorat

It really depends on what you want to do with the product after it's recorded as to whether you want to go all out and spend €1500 on a mic pre convertor like the Audient.

You might have a point if it was Euro 1500

[PaulBrewer]

Originally Posted by studiorat

I'm a fan of the ribbon mic and small mic that looks like a test mic, not too sure what it's called.

I'm told the Thomann ribbon is a rebadged Nady, is that correct?

[Aridstarling]

Originally Posted by PaulBrewer

I'm told the Thomann ribbon is a rebadged Nady, is that correct?

So I've heard. Looks the same, inside and out anyway. I haven't had a chance to compare the two though. Supposed to be quite good considering a sub-100 quid price tag.

[madtheory]

Seems to me that no amount of gear will get you a better sound in what is essentially a control room, not a studio. If you want a better drum sound, try recording them in the kitchen.