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mad lad · 27-08-2009, 14:13

To go back to the original question, there would be little point in trying to set up an alternative union. UCDSU is actually structurally more democratic than the Oireachtas. There are provisions on how class can hold meetings and mandate the reps to propose and vote in favour of motions.

The problem is that the SU is totally irrelevant to most people, they see no difference from year to year, couldn't give a toss who wins elections, and never get involved in anything the union does.

Anything Redmond or Exec support can be overturned by the majority of council. It's likely that a motion will be thrown into council and the policy on the health charges will overturned.

**Riamfada** · 27-08-2009, 14:33

Well if one could convince a large number of students to officially remove themselves from the students union, a right protected by the Irish Constitiution they could easily join a body to represent their interests which is in no way associated with UCDSU or UCD. If the number is high enough and the members act, picket and work with one voice there would be no reason why UCD admin would not take a second union seriously.

TheJeanGenie · 27-08-2009, 14:33

What's the bet that SU will change their view on charges by the end of this year and they'll be outside at the lake with that damn megaphone protesting against health fees?

parker kent · 27-08-2009, 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheJeanGenie

What's the bet that SU will change their view on charges by the end of this year and they'll be outside at the lake with that damn megaphone protesting against health fees?

And probably while we are in the library getting ready for an exam! You see doing that they can get on RTE news (or their own paper) to show how great they are.

**Riamfada** · 27-08-2009, 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by parker kent

And probably while we are in the library getting ready for an exam! You see doing that they can get on RTE news (or their own paper) to show how great they are.

More Shouting!

TheJeanGenie · 27-08-2009, 14:47

I actually felt embarrassed when they showed students marching around demanding free education. I mean they were doing it while they were supposed to be in college or studying or doing something constructive. It reinforces the point to adults that students do a 3 or 4 year course, graduate, and then go back to playing video games at home lol.

parker kent · 27-08-2009, 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheJeanGenie

I actually felt embarrassed when they showed students marching around demanding free education. I mean they were doing it while they were supposed to be in college or studying or doing something constructive. It reinforces the point to adults that students do a 3 or 4 year course, graduate, and then go back to playing video games at home lol.

I'm glad somebody else felt like that too. On the day they wanted us to strike (as if I'm going to strike on a course I'm paying to do!) I got so fed up with them drawing on everything with chalk, especially around the Arts cafe. It looked so pathetic, like a protest organised by children.

**Riamfada** · 27-08-2009, 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by parker kent

I got so fed up with them drawing on everything with chalk, especially around the Arts cafe. It looked so pathetic, like a protest organised by children.

In all fairness to UCDSU that was FEE

parker kent · 27-08-2009, 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimes

In all fairness to UCDSU that was FEE

Oh right, I just saw them as one mass entity annoying me!

TheJeanGenie · 27-08-2009, 14:57

I also can't understand how lecturers allow them to make campaign pleas before, during and after lectures. Why can't they have some respect for students who genuinely don't care about beach parties in dingy nightclubs or how much someone did last year for the students. The best thing they could do for me now is just shut up. Run campaigns around courses rather than disturbing them.

33% God · 27-08-2009, 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheJeanGenie

I actually felt embarrassed when they showed students marching around demanding free education. I mean they were doing it while they were supposed to be in college or studying or doing something constructive. It reinforces the point to adults that students do a 3 or 4 year course, graduate, and then go back to playing video games at home lol.

Ya, protesting to protect your rights and the rights of those who will follow you isn't constructive at all

Before someone tries to tell me that they don't consider education a right, don't bother, I recognise that it's subjective. Ted Bundy doesn't consider life a right.

TheJeanGenie · 27-08-2009, 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by 33% God

Ya, protesting to protect your rights and the rights of those who will follow you isn't constructive at all

Before someone tries to tell me that they don't consider education a right, don't bother, I recognise that it's subjective. Ted Bundy doesn't consider life a right.

They had no arguement during the fees protest. All they said was 'no'. If you want to fight something on behalf of other students they could have offered an alternative to full fees for all students. They should have had a detailed plan to suggest to higher authorities rather than a simple childish 'no'.

**Riamfada** · 27-08-2009, 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheJeanGenie

They had no arguement during the fees protest. All they said was 'no'. If you want to fight something on behalf of other students they could have offered an alternative to full fees for all students. They should have had a detailed plan to suggest to higher authorities rather than a simple childish 'no'.

Thats what I said and as a result was labled "pro-fees" by some in the FEE gang

33% God · 27-08-2009, 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheJeanGenie

They had no arguement during the fees protest. All they said was 'no'. If you want to fight something on behalf of other students they could have offered an alternative to full fees for all students. They should have had a detailed plan to suggest to higher authorities rather than a simple childish 'no'.

Their position is that they don't want fees or a graduate tax in any form, ie. that education should be free at the point of entry. They made a number of arguments as to why that should remain the case. They did not simply say no. They said an emphatic no to any form of fees and made a number of arguments to support that.
Kind of similar to how the elderly said "No" to the governments medical card plans.
If someone were about to take away your right to free speech would they have to give some kind of compromise alternative before protesting or would an emphatic no backed up by cogent arguments suffice?

mad lad · 27-08-2009, 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheJeanGenie

They had no arguement during the fees protest. All they said was 'no'. If you want to fight something on behalf of other students they could have offered an alternative to full fees for all students. They should have had a detailed plan to suggest to higher authorities rather than a simple childish 'no'.

They had an argument. Education should be funded throught the a progressive taxation system with additional funds going into the grant scheme, early initiatives at primary school & retentions schemes at secondary level.

CSO figure show that people on incomes of over 500,000 pay an effective tax rate of between 15-20%.

Some people argued that the 100 million public subsidy to private education should be removed and put into public education.

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27-08-2009, 14:13	#61
mad lad Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 127 Adverts \| Friends	To go back to the original question, there would be little point in trying to set up an alternative union. UCDSU is actually structurally more democratic than the Oireachtas. There are provisions on how class can hold meetings and mandate the reps to propose and vote in favour of motions. The problem is that the SU is totally irrelevant to most people, they see no difference from year to year, couldn't give a toss who wins elections, and never get involved in anything the union does. Anything Redmond or Exec support can be overturned by the majority of council. It's likely that a motion will be thrown into council and the policy on the health charges will overturned.

27-08-2009, 14:33	#62
Riamfada Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Dublin Posts: 8,894 Adverts \| Friends Mod: Archaeology, Military, Mythology, Paranormal	Well if one could convince a large number of students to officially remove themselves from the students union, a right protected by the Irish Constitiution they could easily join a body to represent their interests which is in no way associated with UCDSU or UCD. If the number is high enough and the members act, picket and work with one voice there would be no reason why UCD admin would not take a second union seriously.

27-08-2009, 14:33	#63
TheJeanGenie Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 206 Adverts \| Friends	What's the bet that SU will change their view on charges by the end of this year and they'll be outside at the lake with that damn megaphone protesting against health fees?

27-08-2009, 14:47	#66
TheJeanGenie Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 206 Adverts \| Friends	I actually felt embarrassed when they showed students marching around demanding free education. I mean they were doing it while they were supposed to be in college or studying or doing something constructive. It reinforces the point to adults that students do a 3 or 4 year course, graduate, and then go back to playing video games at home lol.

27-08-2009, 14:57	#70
TheJeanGenie Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 206 Adverts \| Friends	I also can't understand how lecturers allow them to make campaign pleas before, during and after lectures. Why can't they have some respect for students who genuinely don't care about beach parties in dingy nightclubs or how much someone did last year for the students. The best thing they could do for me now is just shut up. Run campaigns around courses rather than disturbing them.