medical education ireland vs UK + USA

[imported_guy]

hi im just starting this thread to see the views of people, who know about the medical education systems of different countries and what they think would be the best way to educate/produce doctors

first of all

i dont like the LC/points system, alot of people in ireland go into medicine for the wrong reasons, like i asked a few leaving cert people who had put down medicine in the CAO and got these replies genrally "ugghh i want to be GP?" or "it pays alot of money, and i worked hard just so i can get medicine", "My dad's a doctor, hes doing pretty good"

im guessing, if they were interviewed for an american college like john hopkins or harvard med, they will be shown the door and asked to do everyone a favor not become a doctor

in america, usually people with a high grades in college (3.5+ GPA with a high 20s MCAT) get called in for an interview and only a handful get in, most who go to like john hopkins and harvard have perfect 4.0s and 99th percentile MCATs, but then again there are people who get 2.5s and okayish MCAT (low 20s maybe) and do a damn good interview/essay and get a place...

the only thing i dont like about the american medical education is probably that its only graduate education, i do support it in some ways though, like the sutdents will know that MEDICINE is what they WANT to do, and will be very dedicated.

even in america, alot of people have been refused entery even with 4.0 GPAs, because they couldnt say anything in their interview, or didnt have the right motives (thats like saying a 600 point person in LC, "sorry you cant do medicine")

and that is pretty much the same in UK, you need to take UKCAT, and atleast AAB in a-levels, and then in most cases you need to do an interview.

this is what i dont get, why do they let anyone with 550 odd points into medicine, without an interview or an essay?, the 550 points doesnt tell us their motives of becoming a doctor, or how dedicated they will be.

[PhysiologyRocks]

Even if their reason were purely financial, they would surely have the intelligence to lie in an interview. Therefore, they would not be kept out and many who cared enough to work hard and get in could potentially be excluded.

[Piste]

Because Ireland is far too small and it would end up being who you know that gets you into college: "ah sure your Ned's little boy arent you? Gosh I havent seen you in years!"

[imported_guy]

Originally Posted by Piste

Because Ireland is far too small and it would end up being who you know that gets you into college: "ah sure your Ned's little boy arent you? Gosh I havent seen you in years!"

that happens everywhere, it takes alot more than 4.0GPA to get into harvard/john hopkins/M.I.T/stanford, most of the kids who get in, their parents are million/billionaires and give alot of "donations" to the schools just so their kids have a better chance to get in, or alot of them know some senator/representative/professor/admin, who puts a good word in... but then again, this is a small portion of the population

[Carsinian Thau]

Originally Posted by imported_guy

that happens everywhere, it takes alot more than 4.0GPA to get into harvard/john hopkins/M.I.T/stanford, most of the kids who get in, their parents are million/billionaires and give alot of "donations" to the schools just so their kids have a better chance to get in, or alot of them know some senator/representative/professor/admin, who puts a good word in... but then again, this is a small portion of the population

But Ireland is small enough so that your "small portion of the population" could amount to a very substantial number here.

[imported_guy]

Originally Posted by Carsinian Thau

But Ireland is small enough so that your "small portion of the population" could amount to a very substantial number here.

not really.... lol we have alot less colleges, and the % of millionaires per capita is ALOT smaller than what it is in america, i dont get your logic.


edit. heres the figures

ireland population = 4.1mill, number of millionaires 33000
america 304 mill, number of millionaires = 7.5 mill

ireland, 1 out of every 125 people is a millionaire
america, 1 out of every 40...

[Carsinian Thau]

Originally Posted by imported_guy

not really.... lol we have alot less colleges, and the % of millionaires per capita is probably close to/smaller than what it is in america, i dont get your logic.

That's just it. We have a lot less colleges so that would imply that the buying of medical school places would cause the number of bought places to outweigh the number of earned medschool places.

[imported_guy]

Originally Posted by Carsinian Thau

That's just it. We have a lot less colleges so that would imply that the buying of medical school places would cause the number of bought places to outweigh the number of earned medschool places.

i just clarified what i said read the edit xD, my bad sorry, what i mean is we have less colleges, less millionaires, less government people, less professors, less population, so everything blances out your logic i no comprende.

[A Neurotic]

Would it really be that hard to implement an impartial system? Couldn't we use panels to assess anonymous candidates? Is that unrealistic?

[bleh1234]

I think it would be very difficult to have impartial panels. The medical community in Ireland is very small it would be next to impossible for children of doctors to interview annonymously & I believe that if interviews are part of the process the panel must include doctors. There are problems with the leaving cert/ HPAT but good thing with the Leaving Cert is it is graded annonymously.

If I were to determine entry requirements I would base it on leaving cert points however they would come from first time sitting and be based on grades from 2 science subjects, English, maths, a language, and a business or arts subject. My reasoning being that the lc is designed to test skills from a broad educational base.

[Carsinian Thau]

Originally Posted by imported_guy

i just clarified what i said read the edit xD, my bad sorry, what i mean is we have less colleges, less millionaires, less government people, less professors, less population, so everything blances out your logic i no comprende.

But you wouldn't need to be a millionaire to buy yourself a place in medschool.
Doctor's children or the children of other very important people in the college would have a significant advantage.

I may not be explaining myself very well. But I'm fairly tired so I'll just leave what I've typed the way I've typed it.

[Carsinian Thau]

Originally Posted by bleh1234

If I were to determine entry requirements I would base it on leaving cert points however they would come from first time sitting and be based on grades from 2 science subjects, English, maths, a language, and a business or arts subject. My reasoning being that the lc is designed to test skills from a broad educational base.

Could I ask what would happen to people like me, who studied the three sciences and didn't really want to have to go through a business or arts subject because we'd find them too boring?

[imported_guy]

Originally Posted by Carsinian Thau

But you wouldn't need to be a millionaire to buy yourself a place in medschool.
Doctor's children or the children of other very important people in the college would have a significant advantage.

I may not be explaining myself very well. But I'm fairly tired so I'll just leave what I've typed the way I've typed it.

your talking about PERCENTAGE of population that can get places in medschool, by influence, which would be the same in america and ireland IT WONT MATTER IF IRELAND IS A SMALLER COUNTRY, we have less doctors/less children as well... so it all balances out, thats what im trying to say...

and its difficult to have an impartial panel but not impossible, they can come over from UK/australia/canada/america/the world, or they can be like the jury in a court room..

[Chunky Monkey]

Originally Posted by PhysiologyRocks

Even if their reason were purely financial, they would surely have the intelligence to lie in an interview. Therefore, they would not be kept out and many who cared enough to work hard and get in could potentially be excluded.

Not necessarily. I know people who had 4 A grades at A levels predicted and didn't get offered places. Apparently that kind of situation isn't so uncommon in the UK.

[Carsinian Thau]

Originally Posted by imported_guy

your talking about PERCENTAGE of population that can get places in medschool, by influence, which would be the same in america and ireland IT WONT MATTER IF IRELAND IS A SMALLER COUNTRY, we have less doctors/less children as well... so it all balances out, thats what im trying to say...

Ok. I think I understand what you're saying now.


But at the moment, under the current system (and under the old one too) no-one could get in on influence alone. In fact, influence paid no part at all in it.

So surely that would make it better than a system which would be similar to the American system.


If I've missed the point again, sorry.