HPAT Vs The Leaving Cert. Posts moved from LC results thread

[bleg]

<moderator note. I've moved a load of threads from the leaving cert thread into this new thread, as we were going off on a tangent discussing the merits of the HPAT. Tallaght01>

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...e-1861720.html

[dudara]

Originally Posted by bleg

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...e-1861720.html

Interesting article - given that I'm not in the field of medicine, do other posters think that the aptitude test is a good thing?

TBH - I'd like to have a doctor that did honours maths - it does show a bit more logical thought or do others think that I am being a bit elitist here?

I should add that when I did my Leaving Cert in 1996, one of my neighbours got medicine and she is straight out one of the dumbest people I've ever met. Points are in no way an indication of someone's ability. But on the other hand, I know people who got great Leavings and were going to make great doctors too.

[bleg]

Ah you're always going to have these sob stories. I do feel sorry for her to be honest. However if you don't make the cut you don't make the cut. Tough luck. There are thousands more who didn't get medicine who also won't get their 2nd, 3rd or 4th choices.


Imagine how ecstatic the person that got 530 points and got accepted is!

[tallaght01]

I agree with you, dudara, to an extent. I think there's a cutoff. I didn't do honours maths, but I get by.

Having said that, the real brainiacs at med school do make the best docs by and large.

The guy who won the gold medal in my year is phenomenal. I've worked with him and he blew everyone out of the water. I worked with another guy who won the gold at oxford. Again, far and away better than the rest of us. I could go on.

People say stuff like "they have no personality" etc, to make themselves feel better, which is just not true. These super clever guys have the same distribution of nice behaviour as the rest of us.

The guy who cardioverted me last week is a super brainy mofo. Total egghead. When yo're lying there about to have 120 joules of electricity pumped through your chest, you want a brainy fecker doing it

[bythewoods]

I'm actually really happy the HPAT's in place as well. Although I did a fair bit of complaining about it.
Don't think I'd have gotten Medicine without it at'all.
Got 550 last year and only increased to 565 this year, so I'd never have gotten UCD with either of those...

That girl's story is pretty bad tbh, she obviously worked really hard for Medicine. There's always repeating the HPAT though...

[Piste]

I hate the HPAT, the only difference it made to me getting medicine is that I got my 3rd choice of college. Without the HPAT I could have done any med course I wanted, so I just thought it was restricting.

[tallaght01]

Originally Posted by bythewoods

I'm actually really happy the HPAT's in place as well. Although I did a fair bit of complaining about it.
Don't think I'd have gotten Medicine without it at'all.
Got 550 last year and only increased to 565 this year, so I'd never have gotten UCD with either of those...

That girl's story is pretty bad tbh, she obviously worked really hard for Medicine. There's always repeating the HPAT though...

Have we got any evidence the HPAT produces the type of docs they say it does?

I think the profession is shooting itself in the foot big time by not letting in students with 600 points.

[Larianne]

"I think HPAT is a bit unfair. I just don't think it is a good assessment of what a good doctor you are going to be." But if you get 600 points in the leaving should you not then get a good result in the HPAT or was she like one of many who just learn off essays etc. ?

I still believe it should all be done like in the UK with personal statements and work experience etc.

Why did they decide to bring the HPAT in here anyway? Uni of Ulster uses it but no other UK college.

I got into Physio this year after years of wanting to do it and getting rejected last year. I cried and then danced around like a loon.

[ZorbaTehZ]

Originally Posted by Larianne

I still believe it should all be done like in the UK with personal statements and work experience etc.

+1.

As far as I'm concerned there are always going to be people who feel hard done by the system, it's impossible to set it up so that everyone is happy.

I really have very mixed opinions on the entire situation, I initially thought the HPAT was a terrible idea, but now seeing that it actually works (ie. students getting in with 500-550 scores) I'm beginning to think it's not as half-cooked an idea as it initially seemed.

Congrats to everyone on getting med btw!
A long and arduous road lies before you all

[finty]

Originally Posted by Larianne

I still believe it should all be done like in the UK with personal statements and work experience etc.

Why did they decide to bring the HPAT in here anyway? Uni of Ulster uses it but no other UK college.

Not sure if the UK have it right either, considering the recent report on how access to professions like medicine is becoming the preserve of the wealthy.


Interviews would lead to favouritism for people from certain schools, kids of docs, etc. etc. and work experience would be more easily accessible to these people too.

At least with an exam, you get what you get based on your ability and nothing else. Except for the grind schools and study courses which do help those with more money to spend on their kids education.

HPAT tests aspect of students intelligence not examined in the leaving cert so it can only help get more rounded individuals into the profession.

[Sweet]

Originally Posted by Piste

I hate the HPAT, the only difference it made to me getting medicine is that I got my 3rd choice of college. Without the HPAT I could have done any med course I wanted, so I just thought it was restricting.

Surely that was the intention of the system ,no? The HPAT, to me, seems designed to recognise those of considerable intelligence, unlike the Leaving Cert which tends to favour the more studious, diligent students. As tallaght01 already pointed out, I'd prefer to have my welfare in the hands of someone who outperformed most of the country of an intelligence test than one who simply recited their learning verbatim.

[Eerie]

Originally Posted by Larianne

"I think HPAT is a bit unfair. I just don't think it is a good assessment of what a good doctor you are going to be." But if you get 600 points in the leaving should you not then get a good result in the HPAT or was she like one of many who just learn off essays etc. ?

I still believe it should all be done like in the UK with personal statements and work experience etc.

That would be ideal, but Ireland is too small! There would always be that element of nepotism without a completely anonymous application process.

The HPAT isn't perfect, but I think it's a step in the right direction. It'll hopefully stop people trying to beat the system, like the girl in the Times article above, who changed subjects to ones where high points are easier to get and avoided harder ones like higher level maths which might actually be useful for medicine. It might also reduce the effectiveness of the "grind-school" type teaching and make it fairer on those who cannot afford or live too far from such schools.

While I feel sorry for her that she didn't get in (I was in that position myself in 2002!), if she really wants to do it there are other ways.

BTW, congratulations to all those who got offers today! I'll be seeing some of you in RCSI very soon!

[Svalbard]

Originally Posted by Sweet

Surely that was the intention of the system ,no? The HPAT, to me, seems designed to recognise those of considerable intelligence, unlike the Leaving Cert which tends to favour the more studious, diligent students. As tallaght01 already pointed out, I'd prefer to have my welfare in the hands of someone who outperformed most of the country of an intelligence test than one who simply recited their learning verbatim.

While admittedly I know nothing of how the HPAT works, is an exam in which all LC students participate a better indicator of who the most intelligent/studious/academic people in the country are versus an exam taken only by those who want to do medicine?

If both are marked 'on the curve', then the one with most participants may be the better test, no?

[bleg]

Originally Posted by Sweet

Surely that was the intention of the system ,no? The HPAT, to me, seems designed to recognise those of considerable intelligence, unlike the Leaving Cert which tends to favour the more studious, diligent students. As tallaght01 already pointed out, I'd prefer to have my welfare in the hands of someone who outperformed most of the country of an intelligence test than one who simply recited their learning verbatim.

I've been saying this for years to my family/friends. Somebody can go in and do the harder subjects such as maths and chemistry and get the minimum requirements one year. Then the next year they go back and do easier subjects such as Ag Science, Biology, Home Ec, Geography and History helping them to get higher points. It's a joke. You should have to get the minimum requirements and the number of points in the same year.

[2Scoops]

Originally Posted by tallaght01

Have we got any evidence the HPAT produces the type of docs they say it does?

Someone on boards (traumadoc?) suggested that the only reason it was introduced reduce the ratio of F:M. I was a little skeptical at first but then I read a quote in the papers from someone involved in establishing HPAT in Ireland and they more or less said just that! Of course, they will couch it in pleasing BS about 'leveling the playing field' etc. etc.

So, my question (and Tallaght01's!) is: are there more men getting in under the new system??

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Irish Independent

This year, 48pc of CAO offers for medicine are going to male students -- up from 40pc last year -- with a corresponding drop from 60pc to 52pc in the proportion of offers for females.

The answer is yes.