Where to go for the best physics degree in Dublin?

[scheisskopf]

I'm planning on applying next year to either Trinity or D.I.T. and would like to get some opinions. After looking into all of the courses offered by these colleges these are my own personal opinions on each of what I'm interested in. If I've gotten the wrong impression of any, I'd appreciate if someone could maybe clarify.



Trinity - Physics through TR071 Natural Science. (Not interested in theoretical.)

Pros:

• Trinity's reputation.
• I imagine Trinity is well equipped and has decent facilities?
  

Cons:

• Two years spent learning an irrelevant science subject that you may not be interested in.
• Huge class and lab sizes for the first two years. Horrific student:lecturer ratio.
• Students seems to be prepared for research orientated postgrad positions only with little emphasis on skills required by employers in industry.
• Emphasis in later years of the degree seems to be disproportionately placed on physics of materials instead of just general physics.
• No options / elective modules. You have to keep to the prescribed course in the final two years.
  
• http://www.tcd.ie/Physics/undergraduate/mod_physics/

D.I.T. - DT222 Physics Technology
- DT235 Physics with Medical Physics and Bioengineering

Pros:

• No time wasted learning irrelevant subjects.
• Small class and lab sizes with a good student:lecturer ratio.
• Significant emphasis is also put on industry attractive skills (as well as research skills) from the very beginning — problem-based learning sessions, programming modules, communication & project management modules in earlier years. Work-placement in DT235.
  
• Broad curriculum across all areas of physics.
• Good selection of options in advanced topics for final year students.

Cons:

• I guess (I could be very wrong) that D.I.T. may not be as well equipped as a college like Trinity.
• The future move to Grangegorman could cause a possible interference.

http://elearning-events.dit.ie/modul...rogramme=DT222

http://elearning-events.dit.ie/modul...rogramme=DT235






I guess at the moment I'm leaning more towards D.I.T. For a person who knows that their intention is to study physics, D.I.T. seems to provide a much better course. Instead of irrelevant science subjects in the first two years, you do modules that compliment your overall course like programming and metrology. You also cover a lot more physics in the first two years. In comparison to D.I.T. students, would trinity physics students not have to play catch-up to a certain extent in third year when they drop their other science subject?

[-JammyDodger-]

You've certainly done your research, anyway.

I'm guessing, since you've ruled out theoretical physics (why, may I ask?) that you're leaning more towards the experimental side of things?

If you consider other Universities in other cities, NUIG offer a physics and applied physics course.

How about physics and astrophysics courses? There are a few in the Universities around Dublin. Again, I suppose it depends on where your interest lies.

If you can talk to ApeXaviour (a mod of this forum) do, as -- as far as I know -- he did general science in Trinity, and has since gone on to do a PhD in something in experimental physics.

Maybe if you could tell us where, specifically, your interest lies, we could tell you which would be the best course.

[Professor_Fink]

Hi,

You might want to think about changing your name to something a little less offensive.

As JammyDodger says, if you want the best physics degree, it's worth looking at direct entry for theoretical physics at either Trinity or UCD. I know others will chime in and say the place they went to is better, but they are wrong. UCD and Trinity are the only two universities that will likely be known by anyone outside Ireland, and that is quite important if you plan on staying in physics. The experimental physics courses in both places are also good, but you won't cover quite as much.

I went to UCD myself, but I will say that Trinity has a better name internationally. There is a huge difference in how people will treat you if you have a Trinity degree rather than a DIT one, and frankly there is good reason for that. You need to take a look at the people teaching the course. Your lecturers play an important role in influencing your learning and your understanding of a subject, and there is no question that Trinity has world class faculty.

I'll run through your prose and cons to try to address them. I'll only bother with the cons for Trinity, since I agree with the pros.

Originally Posted by scheisskopf

Two years spent learning an irrelevant science subject that you may not be interested in.

It won't be irrelevant. Computer science, chemistry and biology all have strong overlaps with physics, and learning the basics of any one of these subjects is extremely useful. Geology is to, particularly if you get interested in something like planet formation (the number of planets we know of has jumped dramatically over the last 10 years as we detect more and more extra solar planets.

I took computer science in UCD, and have never looked back. It might feel a little irrelevant at the time, but it really is a good idea to learn a little about another subject.

By the way, looking at the DIT course, it seems you would have to do chemistry there too.

Originally Posted by scheisskopf

Huge class and lab sizes for the first two years. Horrific student:lecturer ratio.

This drops down surprisingly quickly, and frankly for the first couple of years the lecturer student ratio doesn't really matter. You will almost certainly be broken into smaller groups for tutorials, so you will have room to ask questions, etc. To put this in context, essentially all top tier universities will have large (200+) first year classes. Remember, university isn't school, and a lot of it is about learning on your own.

Originally Posted by scheisskopf

Students seems to be prepared for research orientated postgrad positions only with little emphasis on skills required by employers in industry.

In what industry? What do you plan on doing after you graduate?

I ask because there are not many physics jobs open to people without a PhD, whether in academia or in industry. The reality is that many physics students will either go into research (and hence will do a PhD), the computer industry, consulting or quantative finance. Physics graduates tend to be valued because of their training as physicists, not because of "emphasis on skills required by employers in industry".

I have probably the most academic of physics educations: BSc in TP, MA, DPhil (Oxon), but I still get contacted fairly regularly about software and quant finance jobs. And if you want to advance in a research focused area then a doctorate is essential.

Looking at the DIT website, I honestly cannot see anything the course offers that would give a candidate an edge over one from Trinity, but I can see quite a few things that would give the person from Trinity a substantial edge. The trinity course is a far more complete and thorough physics education (although it seems to lack general relativity, which I always find disappointing).

Originally Posted by scheisskopf

Emphasis in later years of the degree seems to be disproportionately placed on physics of materials instead of just general physics.

I don't see any physics of materials stuff. If you mean AMO (atomic, molecular and optical physics) and condensed matter, than I should point out that this is a large part of what physics is. The course looks pretty much like what a good general physics education should (despite the lack of GR).

I suspect you might be misled by the couse titles vs the DIT course. The DIT course seems to enumerate things, while the TCD titles seem to be broader. The DIT course also seems to focus more on the technology that accompanies physics (devices/metrology etc.), while the TCD course seems to focus more on the core disciplines. Frankly, you can pick up the applied stuff much quicker with good fundamentals, than you can pickup solid fundamentals after the fact.

Originally Posted by scheisskopf

No options / elective modules. You have to keep to the prescribed course in the final two years.

That's unfortunate, but you do cover most topics. Actually looking through the list, the core course in TCD seems to cover most of the electives in DIT.

Originally Posted by scheisskopf

No time wasted learning irrelevant subjects.

You have to cover chemistry, whether you consider it wasted time or not.

Originally Posted by scheisskopf

Small class and lab sizes with a good student:lecturer ratio.

I guess this is something of an advantage, but not as big as you might think. It is also important to consider the quality of the teaching.

Originally Posted by scheisskopf

Significant emphasis is also put on industry attractive skills (as well as research skills) from the very beginning — problem-based learning sessions, programming modules, communication & project management modules in earlier years. Work-placement in DT235.

You'll pretty quickly learn that all of physics is problem based learning. You'll also also find out that all physicists learn to program, and tend to be good at it.

Work placement is a bit odd in physics. By the time you do it, you don't actually have the skills to do anything particularly useful in physics, since it is an extremely skill sensitive environment. Generally the best thing to do to gain experience is to do research over the summer of your 2/3/4th year. There are programmes at some of the major institutions (NASA/CERN/DESY etc.), but there are also many opportunities at labs all over the world. I had a summer student working for me last year, and I think it was a pretty rewarding arrangement for both of us.

As regards project management, all I can say is that its a pain in the ass. I had to do it over the course of my DPhil, and frankly I didn't feel I got anything from it. It tends to be pretty obvious stuff.

Originally Posted by scheisskopf

Broad curriculum across all areas of physics.

To be honest, that's not what I see when I read through the DIT course. I see a spattering of fundamentals padded up with applied / engineering subjects. To me, at least, it would seem that there is not enough of grounding in fundamental physics (there is no particle physics, seems to be no relativity, no field theory, nuclear is only an elective (what the hell kind of physicist doesn't know roughly how to build an atomic weapon?)). These things are extremely important if you actually want to understand anything, and without them it will be very very hard to build on your knowledge.

Originally Posted by scheisskopf

Good selection of options in advanced topics for final year students.

They really aren't. You should have covered most of these by third year (which you would have at UCD or Trinity).

Originally Posted by scheisskopf

I guess at the moment I'm leaning more towards D.I.T. For a person who knows that their intention is to study physics, D.I.T. seems to provide a much better course. Instead of irrelevant science subjects in the first two years, you do modules that compliment your overall course like programming and metrology. You also cover a lot more physics in the first two years. In comparison to D.I.T. students, would trinity physics students not have to play catch-up to a certain extent in third year when they drop their other science subject?[/LEFT]

If you've read the rest of my post, you know by now that I disagree with you on almost every point here. The amount you cover in the first 2 years actually seems substantially less in DIT than TCD. There are certainly cons to TCD, but I don't think you've really hit upon them. TCD will stretch you. The course will be fast paced and bloody hard (at least by the time you hit second year). If your maths isn't up to scratch, you probably won't be able to handle it (and you can't do real physics without real maths). But if you can put up with these things, then the degree you will emerge with will be much better than if you take the easy route and go to DIT.

[Morbert]

Originally Posted by Professor_Fink

As JammyDodger says, if you want the best physics degree, it's worth looking at direct entry for theoretical physics at either Trinity or UCD. I know others will chime in and say the place they went to is better, but they are wrong. UCD and Trinity are the only two universities that will likely be known by anyone outside Ireland, and that is quite important if you plan on staying in physics.

Have to (humbly) disagree with you here. An undergraduade degree from Trinity might help you into Cambridge later, but other than that there seems to be little difference between the Trinity and NUIs (whatever about DIT) in terms of effective reputation (i.e. ability to secure employment/PhD), at least on this side of the pond. Quite a few of my friends from NUI Maynooth went directly to places like Imperial, Cambridge, CERN, etc.

Other than that, I can definitely vouch for Trinity. Their theoretical physics courses are extensive (with undergrad quantum field theory and general relativity being virtually unique to Trinity). They suffer a little from "write this down on exam day" but that seems to be the norm for undergrad, as it's really about how much you personally want to learn. My only other criticism is it would be nice to have a separate theoretical physics and mathematics department, but that's really a small criticism.

I imagine Trinity is well equipped and has decent facilities?

They are. But be warned. The maths offices are hidden behind a maze of doom that you must conquer.

[Podge_irl]

Originally Posted by Professor_Fink

Hi,
This drops down surprisingly quickly, and frankly for the first couple of years the lecturer student ratio doesn't really matter. You will almost certainly be broken into smaller groups for tutorials, so you will have room to ask questions, etc. To put this in context, essentially all top tier universities will have large (200+) first year classes. Remember, university isn't school, and a lot of it is about learning on your own.

Just to add to this point - by far the largest classes I have been in were over the last year in Cambridge and that was also the year I learnt (again by far) the most. The quality of faculty and your fellow students is important, as they are both factors that drive you on.

Looking at the DIT website, I honestly cannot see anything the course offers that would give a candidate an edge over one from Trinity, but I can see quite a few things that would give the person from Trinity a substantial edge. The trinity course is a far more complete and thorough physics education (although it seems to lack general relativity, which I always find disappointing).

General Relativity is covered in the theoretical physics course, but its taught exclusively by the maths department. Its one of the more serious cons about Trinity that the physics and maths depts don't appear to get on fantastically well. The GR course is probably aimed at too high a level mathematically for the physics students anyway, but I don't know why a more introductory course isn't given by someone in the physics dept.



Just as a point to note, of the people in my masters course in Cambridge the Irish students were predominantly from TCD and UCC (though there are some people from UCD and NUIG most years I think). They would all have come from theoretical physics courses though.

[ZorbaTehZ]

Don't mean to pull the thread off-topic but just a question about the Trinity curricula

Is it unusual to have Quantum Field Theory as an undergrad module? I was under the impression that that was way too heavy for anything but graduate level

Just regarding the General Relativity course, do you get introduced to the differential geometry as a part of that module or are those learned separately ie. is it a self-containted course, or does it rely heavely on what you are learning in other math modules?

[Morbert]

Originally Posted by ZorbaTehZ

Don't mean to pull the thread off-topic but just a question about the Trinity curricula

Is it unusual to have Quantum Field Theory as an undergrad module? I was under the impression that that was way too heavy for anything but graduate level

Just regarding the General Relativity course, do you get introduced to the differential geometry as a part of that module or are those learned separately ie. is it a self-containted course, or does it rely heavely on what you are learning in other math modules?

General Relativity is largely self-contained. The Quantum Field Theory module is intensive but the exam is generally easy compared to the course itself (which is normally taught with a tiring three hour long lecture each week). And yes, it is unusual as an undergrad module. The TCD module is loosely based on the Yale postgrad module, and QFT in general draws from a wide range of fields, so it can challenging.

[Professor_Fink]

Originally Posted by Morbert

Have to (humbly) disagree with you here. An undergraduade degree from Trinity might help you into Cambridge later, but other than that there seems to be little difference between the Trinity and NUIs (whatever about DIT) in terms of effective reputation (i.e. ability to secure employment/PhD), at least on this side of the pond. Quite a few of my friends from NUI Maynooth went directly to places like Imperial, Cambridge, CERN, etc.

I did TP in UCD, and I would certainly recommend it, but the question seemed to be purely in the context of Trinity vs DIT. I would put UCD at about the same level as trinity with NUIM only slightly behind. The other NUIs are probably not far behind, but I don't have direct experience of them. For what its worth, all of the Irish DPhil students I have met in Oxford (quite a lot actually) either came from UCD or TCD. The same is true for faculty here. I know people that have come from both Trinity, UCD and QUB, but no other Irish institutions (although everyone knows DIAS, it is very very small).

Maynooth is pretty good, but it suffers from having an extremely small faculty particularly in the mathematical physics department.

[Professor_Fink]

Originally Posted by Morbert

General Relativity is largely self-contained. The Quantum Field Theory module is intensive but the exam is generally easy compared to the course itself (which is normally taught with a tiring three hour long lecture each week). And yes, it is unusual as an undergrad module. The TCD module is loosely based on the Yale postgrad module, and QFT in general draws from a wide range of fields, so it can challenging.

Quantum field theory isn't terribly difficult, but does require a grounding in a few other subjects before you can really do it, which is why it is usually covered either in 4th year or at a graduate level. It's good to do it earlier, since you need QFT and GR if you want to do string theory for example.

The trouble with learning physics is that each part builds on previous knowledge. So if you want to learn cutting edge physics you have to grind through the 19th century stuff just to learn the necessary tools.

[Clseeper]

If you’re not interested in the theoretical side, there is an applied physics course in DCU. I’m clearly biased as that’s where I went for my undergraduate phyiscs.

From what I read from your post, you’re looking for something hands on and not academically focused ie you want a real job after. Then you should consider looking at the work placement options out of DCU. You can do the normal INTRA of 9 months or do as I did and took part in an internship. Lasting two years, you work in a company for 2 days a week for the last two years of your degree and during the summers. This is to give you ‘real’ skills and reduce the gap between college and industry. Plus this lets the employee know what you’re like based on your work and not just the course, and college reputation.

It’s worked out perfectly for me and I now have a position in New Technology development within a large multinational. PM me if you’d like more focused detail or to ask any questions.

[kevmy]

Originally Posted by Professor_Fink

As JammyDodger says, if you want the best physics degree, it's worth looking at direct entry for theoretical physics at either Trinity or UCD. I know others will chime in and say the place they went to is better, but they are wrong. UCD and Trinity are the only two universities that will likely be known by anyone outside Ireland, and that is quite important if you plan on staying in physics. The experimental physics courses in both places are also good, but you won't cover quite as much.

I went to UCD myself, but I will say that Trinity has a better name internationally. There is a huge difference in how people will treat you if you have a Trinity degree rather than a DIT one, and frankly there is good reason for that. You need to take a look at the people teaching the course. Your lecturers play an important role in influencing your learning and your understanding of a subject, and there is no question that Trinity has world class faculty.

Originally Posted by Morbert

Have to (humbly) disagree with you here. An undergraduade degree from Trinity might help you into Cambridge later, but other than that there seems to be little difference between the Trinity and NUIs (whatever about DIT) in terms of effective reputation (i.e. ability to secure employment/PhD), at least on this side of the pond. Quite a few of my friends from NUI Maynooth went directly to places like Imperial, Cambridge, CERN, etc.

Other than that, I can definitely vouch for Trinity. Their theoretical physics courses are extensive (with undergrad quantum field theory and general relativity being virtually unique to Trinity). They suffer a little from "write this down on exam day" but that seems to be the norm for undergrad, as it's really about how much you personally want to learn. My only other criticism is it would be nice to have a separate theoretical physics and mathematics department, but that's really a small criticism.

Have to go with Morbert here, while Trinity undoubtedly has the best TP course in the country I don't think there is such a large difference doing other more Applied courses in other universities. For example I did undergrad in NUIG in Applied Physics - I know guys who have gone to Cambridge, Manchester, Yale, NASA, Univ or Arizona etc. all from that course. But they wouldn't be doing theoretical/mathematical physics PhD. - more Apllied/Laser/Optics/Astronomy stuff.
I have met very few from Trinity in these areas. Undoubtedly they do go on to do stuff in the quantum field theory etc. from Trinity.

If you are interested in doing Medical Physics there is a relatively new degree course started in NUIG
http://www.nuigalway.ie/physics/physics_med.html
This builds on a current Masters course in Med Phys. in Galway one of only 2 in the country and I'm pretty sure the one in Trinity has been on and off for the last couple of yrs due to lack of demand.

[Michaelrsh]

Hey guys, I got offered physics with astonomy and space science in UCD. Is there anyone here who did this course (or doing) who can tell me what it's like? Is there much career/ research opportunities available for someone with a degree like this?? Would it be recognised abroad???

[Conor108]

Originally Posted by Michaelrsh

Hey guys, I got offered physics with astonomy and space science in UCD. Is there anyone here who did this course (or doing) who can tell me what it's like? Is there much career/ research opportunities available for someone with a degree like this?? Would it be recognised abroad???

Thinking about throwing this down as No.1 on the aul' CAO come February so could use some info too

[Professor_Fink]

Originally Posted by Michaelrsh

Hey guys, I got offered physics with astonomy and space science in UCD. Is there anyone here who did this course (or doing) who can tell me what it's like? Is there much career/ research opportunities available for someone with a degree like this?? Would it be recognised abroad???

I didn't do it, but I can at least assure you that it will be recognised internationally (as should any NUI degree). This is a pretty common type of degree for people that go into physics/astro research, so you shouldn't really run into any difficulties there.

[Professor_Fink]

Originally Posted by kevmy

Have to go with Morbert here, while Trinity undoubtedly has the best TP course in the country I don't think there is such a large difference doing other more Applied courses in other universities. For example I did undergrad in NUIG in Applied Physics - I know guys who have gone to Cambridge, Manchester, Yale, NASA, Univ or Arizona etc. all from that course. But they wouldn't be doing theoretical/mathematical physics PhD. - more Apllied/Laser/Optics/Astronomy stuff.
I have met very few from Trinity in these areas. Undoubtedly they do go on to do stuff in the quantum field theory etc. from Trinity.

Well, there is certainly a world of difference between theoretical and applied physics courses. You do very different things. No applied physics course will touch GR with a barge pole, and the other subjects are always covered in a somewhat less rigorous manner. I don't mean this as a slight against experimental or applied physics. Quite the opposite. They focus on a different facet of physics: i.e. actually making stuff work, which is largely left as an excercise for the interested reader in TP courses.

I didn't mean to annoy anyone with my post, but it is simply my opinion that there is a pretty clear partial ordering of physics courses in Ireland with Trinity > DIT. I'm sure people from most courses have gone on to be successful. You trotted out Cambridge, Manchester, Yale, NASA and Univ of Arizona, so let me say something about this:

I went to NASA too, and I ended up in Oxford. I did a DPhil there and stayed on as a fellow in one of the more well-known colleges. In this time I have met quite a few other Irish physicists. In my personal experience, a disproportionate number of the ones having prestigious affiliations have come from either Trinity or UCD. In fact, I am hard pressed to think of an Irish person I have met in Oxford who has not come from either Trinity or UCD (actually I can think of one, but she does Law not physics).

I really am not trying to put down courses, students or researchers at other institutions. I am just trying to give honest advice. As I have already mentioned, I have never been affiliated with Trinity, so I have no particular bias toward it.