Loss of faith

[Fanny Cradock]

What is it that makes a sincere and earnest believer loose faith? And how is the Christian to reconcile this in light of various passages in the NT regarding the honest search for faith? (None specifically spring to mind - maybe they will later.)

In the past I've encountered “deconversion” stories on websites like ex-christian.net. Broadly speaking, it seems to me that these former believers can be split into three categories.

• A) Sincere - Someone who had a love of God, a good to excellent grounding in the finer details of faith and Christian epistemology and seemed to tick all the right theological boxes. However, despite these advantages (if that's the correct word) and some apparently honest soul searching when a crisis of faith hit, they still abandoned Christianity.

• B) Feet of Clay - Someone whose faith was so rigid that a blow to a core belief caused a gradual collapse of all their religious beliefs.

• C) Cultural – Someone who never really accepted the truth of Christianity and abandoned it without much in the way of internal conflict.

Being perfectly honest, for the purposes of this thread, I'm not overly concerned with group B or C. While group B puzzles me, I think that it seems obvious why they jacked it in, and I've encountered enough of group C over the years to have a fair idea of where they are coming from. They never where believers – not in any real sense of the word – so I don't expect much insight from what seemed like an inevitable abandonment of “faith” that really never was.

Some of the most memorable testimonies I've encountered have been from former men of the cloth who would have seemed to fit into somewhere between B and C. The general thrust of their tale was that they lost the faith for whatever reason and now detest Christianity with a passion that seemingly overshadows whatever passion they once had for God. (Perhaps this is an unfair inference on my part.) Consequently, most of the vestiges of their old Christian selves have been abandoned and they have become a sort of rebellious parody of their old selves. Behind these stories I detect a lot of arrogance and bitterness. It's all the more puzzling and shocking to think that they were once leaders and people of influence.

To be fair, I should stress that not all B and C's come across in such a negative manner. However, for the purpose of this thread, I want to concentrate on group A, those who loose faith despite their best (?) efforts. As a Christian I really can't understand why this would happen if we bear in mind the role of the Holy Spirit and various passages in the bible tells us about faith. Matt 7:7 is about the most apt verse I can think of at the mo, though I imagine there are better. Is there beyond putting the loss of faith as a consequence of their free choice. Are we to believe that there was really something else going on behind the struggle? Surely "selfishness" wouldn't be a reason to stop believing, maybe only a reason to be an uncommited Christian. What did they do wrong?

Christian spirited responses, please.

[PDN]

I think the 'feet of clay' one is quite common.

Proponents of particular doctrines (eg, creationism, hell, the rapture, biblical inerrancy, speaking in tongues, predestination etc.) tend to stress them so strongly that they overegg the pudding and claim that if you abandon these doctrines then there's nothing left. Then, if someone does come to doubt such a doctrine their whole religious world collapses.

There are certain truths that are so foundational that a viable Gospel does not exist wiithout them, but I think they are comparatively few. The resurrection is one clear example, but I would also include the historicity of Jesus, His humanity, His deity, His death on the Cross, and the belief that Scripture is (in some way or another) inspired by God.

[Phototoxin]

I was in a phase of questioning - still believing but questioning, then i got quick sick and for a time hadn't the strength to go to church. However despite having the strength I had come to realise that my life was no less off by not going. I have tried different things when I got my job but the local RC church is horrid and seemed awfully judgmental. Plus I disagree with some of the infallible truths that an RC MUST belive (most if it you just have to not deny, only a little you must actualyl belive when it comes down to it) plus I find RCism highly pharasical with all its rules which of course the trad mindset what to harken back to.

I try to go to the quaker meetings in town but I'm not there often (have gotten engaged 2 weeks ago so visiting the fiancée and going to her church) although that might change as they've re-envisioned their stance on same sex marriage which is a puzzler.
Fiancee's church is nice as stated before and I will be getting married there but I don't classify myself as a christian. I have difficulty in accepting why I need to be saved, why I'm damned from the moment I'm born, why the Christian God is supposed to be brilliant when the OT has many negative points.
However I do agree with the moral principles such as help people, and protect those who cannot protect themselves, be honest, sex after marraige etc

[SlickRic]

i find a big reason is the churches. people are too worried about being judgmental and forget to just 'be Jesus' to people. As the church, we should be walking with people through difficulties, hardships and questioning.

too often i find people are just told they're being ridiculous, should just believe, and get on with it. none of us know everything.

i long for the day when all churches walk with people as they question. i strongly believe people would give God more of a chance if they did.

[Fanny Cradock]

Originally Posted by PDN

I think the 'feet of clay' one is quite common.

Proponents of particular doctrines (eg, creationism, hell, the rapture, biblical inerrancy, speaking in tongues, predestination etc.) tend to stress them so strongly that they overegg the pudding and claim that if you abandon these doctrines then there's nothing left. Then, if someone does come to doubt such a doctrine their whole religious world collapses.

There are certain truths that are so foundational that a viable Gospel does not exist wiithout them, but I think they are comparatively few. The resurrection is one clear example, but I would also include the historicity of Jesus, His humanity, His deity, His death on the Cross, and the belief that Scripture is (in some way or another) inspired by God.

I would completely agree with this. However, what do you think about the failed struggle of the honest person with failed faith?

Originally Posted by Phototoxin

I was in a phase of questioning - still believing but questioning, then i got quick sick and for a time hadn't the strength to go to church. However despite having the strength I had come to realise that my life was no less off by not going. I have tried different things when I got my job but the local RC church is horrid and seemed awfully judgmental. Plus I disagree with some of the infallible truths that an RC MUST belive (most if it you just have to not deny, only a little you must actualyl belive when it comes down to it) plus I find RCism highly pharasical with all its rules which of course the trad mindset what to harken back to.

I try to go to the quaker meetings in town but I'm not there often (have gotten engaged 2 weeks ago so visiting the fiancée and going to her church) although that might change as they've re-envisioned their stance on same sex marriage which is a puzzler.
Fiancee's church is nice as stated before and I will be getting married there but I don't classify myself as a christian. I have difficulty in accepting why I need to be saved, why I'm damned from the moment I'm born, why the Christian God is supposed to be brilliant when the OT has many negative points.
However I do agree with the moral principles such as help people, and protect those who cannot protect themselves, be honest, sex after marraige etc

Funnily enough, I thought of your good self when I was typing this, Phototoxin. I do think that there are reasonable answers to your troubling questions and those obstacles that stand in the way of your faith. But then again, I'm not you! And possibly those answers lay somewhere beyond this forum. As for your illness - you have mentioned it in the past - you might be inspired by the books of Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning
and Man's Search For Ultimate meaning. They are on my list of must reads.

[Fanny Cradock]

Originally Posted by SlickRic

i find a big reason is the churches. people are too worried about being judgmental and forget to just 'be Jesus' to people. As the church, we should be walking with people through difficulties, hardships and questioning.

too often i find people are just told they're being ridiculous, should just believe, and get on with it. none of us know everything.

i long for the day when all churches walk with people as they question. i strongly believe people would give God more of a chance if they did.

Yes, but what of those who where heavily involved in a Church, maybe even a strong figure in it?

[Plowman]

Have you ever read about Karen Armstrong? I think she fits your category A rather well, being both an ex-nun and an ex-atheist.

She was originally a nun, but left both Catholicism and the convent to study English at university. Her book "Through the Narrow Gate" describes her life as in the convent and her struggle with faith (never read it, though). I found a useful biography of her here. Then, Channel 4 asked her to present a religious documentary given her controversial(-ish) former-nun-turned-athiest stance. But when she was filming in Jerusalem, she was kind of re-converted back to religion. She now describes herself as some form of monotheist, although she does not commit herself to any particular organised religion.

She certainly seems like someone who did not cast off their religion lightly and for whom faith has been a lifelong struggle.

[delta720]

Originally Posted by Plowman

But when she was filming in Jerusalem, she was kind of re-converted back to religion. She now describes herself as some form of monotheist, although she does not commit herself to any particular organised religion.

This is very strange, as an athiest myself I would have thought that seeing first hand everything that happens in Jerusalem (I've only seen documentaries) would have only reinforced her position as it is exactly that which makes us discard 'religion', if not a belief in a god.

[SlickRic]

Originally Posted by Fanny Cradock

Yes, but what of those who where heavily involved in a Church, maybe even a strong figure in it?

my comment includes those who have been involved in a church.

people become tired of trying to be perfect, or trying to please those around them, or please a God who they believe wants them to be perfect. it's easy to become disillusioned with this.

as chuches we forget too often to nurture and choose to judge. this is not true of all churches of course; just many that i've seen.

[Plowman]

Originally Posted by delta720

This is very strange, as an athiest myself I would have thought that seeing first hand everything that happens in Jerusalem (I've only seen documentaries) would have only reinforced her position as it is exactly that which makes us discard 'religion', if not a belief in a god.

Well you have suggested two different reasons for discarding religion, there. I suppose if you discarded religion because of what goes on in Jerusalem, then that would mean the basis of your faith was mainly cultural (cat. C above). But this is not a reason for belief, fundamentally. Adherence to the Church (or mosque or synagogue, etc.) as a social institution is not the same as bellief in God.

I think Armstrong found the love in the violence, if you understand - kind of like Heathcliff and Cathy in "Wuthering Heights." The violence actually suggests the significance of the place for three major world religions, even if it is obviously undesirable.

[Hotspace]

To summarise your question: How does a committed Christian lose their faith? If you’ve read enough of the de-conversion testimonies at ex-christian.net then you should start seeing a commonality. By the way my own testimony is up there in the 2006 archives but you won’t find it under the same username. I used my real name – foolish of me.

I’ve read book level de-conversion testimonies as well as internet blogged ones and the commonalities that I see are:

• You must have a questioning mind, perhaps philosophical in nature.
• New information comes along which contradicts what you previously held to be true.
• A personal crisis.

Why don’t you ask the same question just re-hashed a bit to suit the forum at ex-christian.net?

[Fanny Cradock]

Originally Posted by Hotspace

To summarise your question: How does a committed Christian lose their faith? If you’ve read enough of the de-conversion testimonies at ex-christian.net then you should start seeing a commonality. By the way my own testimony is up there in the 2006 archives but you won’t find it under the same username. I used my real name – foolish of me.

I’ve read book level de-conversion testimonies as well as internet blogged ones and the commonalities that I see are:

• You must have a questioning mind, perhaps philosophical in nature.
• New information comes along which contradicts what you previously held to be true.
• A personal crisis.

Why don’t you ask the same question just re-hashed a bit to suit the forum at ex-christian.net?

I don't think I'm greatly interested in asking what they think. It's already there in black and white, after all. As a Christian I am operating under the assumption in this thread that they are wrong and Christianity is correct. So, for the purposes of this thread, there is no epistemological challenge. Therefore, if Christianity is assumed to be correct, how does the Christian reconcile the loss of faith in the former honest believer in light of what the bible tells us?

As for your reasons - and I don't mean to be dismissive - I've heard them before. Yes, they were obviously compelling to yourself and those of your irreligious bent, but many Christians have investigated the claims of the unbeliever and have found the central thesis - that there is no God - to be without merit. And would you believe that some of us have done this with a "questioning mind"? Indeed, without dismissing some very valid questions, arguments and criticisms posed by atheism, as a pillar upon which a world view rests, I believe it poses some very difficult questions that are rarely recognised or addressed by the casual unbeliever.

Out of curiosity, assuming you agree with the 3 categories outlined in the OP, where would you place yourself?

Still, I do not wish to deflect this discussion away from the main point of the thread. What is a Christian to make of group A in light of the bible?

[JimiTime]

Originally Posted by Fanny Cradock

• A) Sincere - Someone who had a love of God, a good to excellent grounding in the finer details of faith and Christian epistemology and seemed to tick all the right theological boxes. However, despite these advantages (if that's the correct word) and some apparently honest soul searching when a crisis of faith hit, they still abandoned Christianity.

.

I think there are many factors involved. I'll start though by giving examples of folk biblically who abandoned faith, though not necessarily belief.

King Saul
Judas Iscariot
Adam and Eve
King Solomon

Now these people all had first hand dealings with God, yet they abandoned him. Seeing such people abandon their faith should inform us that no matter how strong our faith may be, we must keep it fed with Godly nourishment. I would say that there are probably few of us that have had the faith of King Solomon. Yet such a man abandoned his faith. Abandoning 'belief' goes with abandoning faith in this age of what I would call ambiguous communication between God and man.

What are the causes these days? Well I would guess the following are factors.

1. The sufferring in the world. People not fathoming why God would let it continue. Especially when one hears of things like Fritzel etc. I would never underestimate such things effect on ones faith.

2. Misplaced faith elsewhere that turns a person from their Christian faith. The scientific community being the obvious one that springs to mind. If their faith in men and their workings outweighs their faith in God, they may come to a crossroads and feel that Christianity has been shown to be precarious.

3. Intellectualising their faith. They may have built their faith on intellectualism. To all it seems that they have such great faith due to their outward knowledge etc However if it seems to them that it is then intellectually undermined, they struggle. As Paul said, Knowledge puffs up, but Love builds up.

4. Carrying on from point 3, they have it all but the key ingredient. Love.

I remember as a child having alot of faith. Alot more than I have now unfortunately. I love the Story of David and Goliath. That child like faith of 'What are you worried about? We have God on our side. I don't want armour, Jehovah is my armour. Just give me a stone and a slingshot and I'll go down.' Its a story that never fails to build me up. Its what Christ is talking about. IMO he warns us about the scribes, and the intellectualisers. Its why he talks about being childlike. A child just trusts their parents.

Thats my 2 cent anyhoo.

[PDN]

Originally Posted by JimiTime

1. The sufferring in the world. People not fathoming why God would let it continue. Especially when one hears of things like Fritzel etc. I would never underestimate such things effect on ones faith.

This is the reason why Bart Ehrman, a well known agnostic biblical scholar, abandoned his Christian faith. He could not reconcile his beliefs with the suffering he saw in the world.

[getz]

there are many around like myself ,who believe in early christian teachings,then take one look on how the christian churches practice it a say why,this wasent how it was supposed to be, jesus did not teach this,