leoithne farraige

[pog it]

This is the latest featured term on Focal.ie

Sea breeze:- Gaoth fharraige / Leoithne farraige

Gaoth and leoithne are both feminine nouns so I was expecting farraige (which is in genitive) to get a séimhiú in both cases

[conchubhar1]

Thou shalt not question Fiontar

[pog it]

Eh I wasn't questioning them.. I was asking what the grammatical reason is it that farraige doesn't get a séimhiú after leoithne.

[conchubhar1]

sorry i was joking - should have made that clear.

there are always exceptions to rules, this is one of them?

[Múinteoir]

Looks like a mistake. Email them about it. I've seen other ones myself on that site in the past. They're usually just typos. Overall focal.ie is an excellent resource, ach níl saoi gan locht!

[pog it]

Cheers I think I will just to ask them what the reason is.

I went down through CB grammar book that Micilín Muc posted in another thread, and they explain that along with d, s, t not being lenited after dntls, in the case of an indefinite noun in the genitive, f tosaigh also resists lenition after another noun as the séimhiú can alter the meaning of a word in speech. They give the example: deoir fola (fhola / ola).

It does make sense. I had heard that F tends to resist lenition in general because the 'FH' is a totally different sound to the F.

So perhaps gaoth fharraige is an old rooted term that is just spelt the way it is. I will email them though just to find out.

[Micilin Muc]

Originally Posted by pog it

CB grammar...explain that along with d, s, t not being lenited after dntls, in the case of an indefinite noun in the genitive, f tosaigh also resists lenition after another noun as the séimhiú can alter the meaning of a word in speech. They give the example: deoir fola (fhola / ola).

It does make sense. I had heard that F tends to resist lenition in general because the 'FH' is a totally different sound to the F.

That's the exact reason that I would give, it's on page 30

For the same reason, it is very unlikely that you'll hear someone saying m'fhón, but you'll hear mo fón instead.

[pog it]

Originally Posted by Micilin Muc

That's the exact reason that I would give, it's on page 30

For the same reason, it is very unlikely that you'll hear someone saying m'fhón, but you'll hear mo fón instead.

m'fhón.. hm yep does sound vaguely like something else!

I sent them an e-mail just there to ask about why gaoth fharraige.

Would the fact that gaoth is also a particularly very 'eeee' feminine sound be the reason why the farraige takes the séimhiú and in keeping with the general rule that second nouns after feminine nouns get H séimhiú.

Would 'leoithne fharraige' have sounded like something different if they had put the séimhiú in?

[Micilin Muc]

Originally Posted by pog it

Would the fact that gaoth is also a particularly very 'eeee' feminine sound be the reason why the farraige takes the séimhiú and in keeping with the general rule that second nouns after feminine nouns get H séimhiú.

Would 'leoithne fharraige' have sounded like something different if they had put the séimhiú in?

I reckon "leoithne farraige" has no séimhiú because 'leoithne' ends on a vowel and it would run the risk of confusion since the two words would run into each other if 'farraige' had a séimhiú.


But the entry for "leoithne" on page 780 of the Ó Dónaill Dictionary is interesting:

"Leoithne ghaoithe" = breath of wind.
"Leoithne farraige" = sea-breeze.

This is in line with what the Christian Brothers have, and with what An Coiste Téarmaíochta propose in Caighdeán Leathan agus Caighdeán Cúng under 4(d).

[pog it]

So if the F tosaigh is of an adjective qualifying a feminine noun it will get the séimhiú:
e.g. seachtain fhluich.

And if it's a F tosaigh noun qualifying a noun, then it is both yes and no regards séimhiú (as in normally No séimhiú but in category 3 of Terms Committee about 'An Séimhiú Idirdhealaitheach' there will be cases where it will be séimhiú-ed to differentiate meaning.
***It seems to be that category applies to F tosaigh nouns too, is that right?***

So in that scenario for F tosaigh etc. you have to look at whether it is telling you something about the second noun- leoithne ghaoithe: breath of wind (sorry just taking your example to show how I'm learning it) = a true genitive

compared with a noun that is describing the first noun directly: as in leoithne farraige :sea-breeze

So therefore gaoth fharraige would be a wind of (from) the sea hence needing more so the séimhiú, and leoithe farraige escapes because of vowel at end and anyway it's sea-breeze (descriptive adjective acting noun)

Am I taking this up right?


[By the way, God bless ya. I'll be reading through that link for long days to come, but it's going to be huge huge help. Thanks for going to the trouble]

[Nuggles]

Farraige is a feminine noun.

An fharraige.

The "an" gives it seimhiú.

Leoithne farraige, genitive form. There isn't a séimhiú in a feminine noun genitive form.

[pog it]

Originally Posted by Nuggles

Farraige is a feminine noun.

An fharraige.

The "an" gives it seimhiú.

Leoithne farraige, genitive form. There isn't a séimhiú in a feminine noun genitive form.

Thanks for the reply Nuggles.

And if only it was that straightforward. With the article + genitive Feminine noun that is certainly the case alright- no séimhiu.

But there are different rules when it comes to two nouns coming together- that is the second noun coming directly after the first, with no Article (an/na) in between.

In that case the second noun's gender is irrelevant- it is governed by the first noun. Some examples: (They get the séimhiu cause the first noun is feminine)

bean ghaoil; deoch bhainne; tine ghuail

also- tine mhóna (from móin; fem. noun)

All the second nouns are masculine in first list- but I am showing both to you to show the irrelevance (most of the time, there are exceptions see link above) of the gender in this scenario.

Please see also link posted by Micilin Muc above.

It has taken me a lot of study to understand this and I have more to go as there are exceptions, etc.
But do if you get a chance have a look at the link from the acmhainn.ie. A lot of information is there.

[pog it]

Hey just got an e-mail back from the good people of Focal.ie and he said that 'leoithne farraige' is based on the new rules as per the Caighdeán Leathan agus an Caighdeán Cúng (he also gave me link that Micilin gave here ) and he explained that Gaoth Fharraige had existed before the Rule changes in a dictionary written up in 1981, and that obviously they will get around to changing everything on Focal.ie so that it corresponds to the new Rules but that will need more time and more staff.

So he said also that After a feminine noun, a noun starting with F does not take the séimhiú. I didn't ask about the middle 'differentiation' thing from the link, but the hard rule is no séimhiú on F. (the rest can wait, I'm not able for anymore of this topic!!)

This caighdeán leathan and caighdeán cúng is a pretty damn good idea whoever came up with it. Its purpose is so that the Irish of the best speakers (native speakers from all the dialects) will be allowed for and included rather than the old caighdeán which cut off a lot of colloquial ways.

Must admit that multiple nouns in succession bearing in mind all the exceptions will take work to get the hang of, but I have a bit to go before I worry about it too much

[Micilin Muc]

Originally Posted by pog it

Focal.ie ... said that 'leoithne farraige' is based on the new rules as per the Caighdeán Leathan agus an Caighdeán Cúng ... and explained that Gaoth Fharraige had existed before the Rule changes in a dictionary written up in 1981, and that obviously they will get around to changing everything on Focal.ie so that it corresponds to the new Rules ...

That's interesting to hear that those rules are actually being used, I thought an Caighdeán Leathan agus an Caighdeán Cúng was just recommendations and that they would publish it when the new Caighdeán is published.

Originally Posted by pog it

I'm not able for anymore of this topic!!

To get this far is good enough!

Originally Posted by pog it

This caighdeán leathan and caighdeán cúng is a pretty damn good idea whoever came up with it. Its purpose is so that the Irish of the best speakers (native speakers from all the dialects) will be allowed for and included rather than the old caighdeán which cut off a lot of colloquial ways.

It's based on Athchaighdeánú by an tOllamh Dónall Ó Baoill. I met him when I did an interview for a job in Rannóg an Aistriúcháin in Leinster House and from what I gathered he's all for a new standard but not at the cost of the dialects (especially Ulster!).

Originally Posted by pog it

Must admit that multiple nouns in succession bearing in mind all the exceptions will take work to get the hang of, but I have a bit to go before I worry about it too much

It's hard for me to get the hang of it without constantly referring to Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí. It's one of my favourite parts of Irish grammar though

I've just been informed of Translation Guidelines for translators in the north. An-suimiúil ar fad!