[dowlingm]

Originally Posted by Victor

€€€

Either drop or raise track at North Strand. You'd probably have to buy out a fair few of the residents though.

Victor - I can also think of several ways to do it. I wanted cgcsb to spell out his way and tell us how much it would cost.

[strassenwo!f]

Originally Posted by Jack Noble

Drogheda is part of the DU plan.

But not part of the T21 plan, which is the most recent plan produced by the Dept. of Transport.

Originally Posted by Jack Noble

I am only quoting what I'm reading in the IE plans and business case and the latest NTA strategy, 2030Vision - it's there for all to see.

The NTA strategy? That's basically the DTO, isn't it? Are Crayola still sponsoring them?

Originally Posted by Jack Noble

Too much discussion has been done already. We have the plans - they should be implemented as soon as possible when the funding situations improves.

Well you say you have the plans, Jack. But the plans are basically the same as they were in the earlier part of the last decade, when the country was wallowing in money. They weren't implemented then, and it's hard to see the country soon being in a situation where it could sit down and have a think about rethinking them.

Originally Posted by Jack Noble

The DTO was a strategy - FF-PDs dillied and dallied and then cherry picked the best bits. Two of those now have detailed plans and railways orders so we are further along than every other plan bar the one Dart and two Luas lines we have.

Jack, have you have ever looked at the transport systems of other cities, and the amount of planning which is involved? In comparison to the work which goes on in many European cities about general planning and transport planning the DTO's work was quite obviously minimal. I'm sure they did their best within their remit, but it was minimal.

Originally Posted by Jack Noble

In the current circumstances nothing will start before 2016 at the earliest. But it is all down to money now - we don't have any and won't for at least another four/five years.

Well, yes, that's what I'm saying. There's no cash, and the previous projects didn't get the go-ahead when there was lots of it. It's going to be a long time before the country is as rich as it was in the years around the T21 project. If they didn't get the green light then, maybe they weren't the right projects.

Originally Posted by Jack Noble

It also depends on the political situation here and in the eurozone. Today, 'austerity' is the only agenda in town. A few more years of recession or zero growth, and a few more elections across the EZ and 'stimulus' may very well be the new agenda a few years from now - especially if Merkel gets booted out in Germany next year. Hollande is already suggesting that is the route he will seek/demand if, as now seems likely, he is elected in France.

Unfortunately, this is European political stuff, which is over my handsome little head.

[Jack Noble]

Originally Posted by strassenwo!f

But not part of the T21 plan, which is the most recent plan produced by the Dept. of Transport.

The IE DartU plan and business case and 2030Vision are more uptodate than T21.

The Business Case dates from April 2010.

Originally Posted by strassenwo!f

The NTA strategy? Is that a nationwide re-mix of the DTO strategy? All the crayola stuff in the DTO's documents?

2030Vision updates Platform for Change, taking into account what has happened since 2001 such as T21 in 2005.

Originally Posted by strassenwo!f

Well you say you have the plans, Jack. But the plans are basically the same as they were in the earlier part of the last decade, when the country was wallowing in money. They weren't implemented then, and it's hard to see the country soon being in a situation where it could sit down and have a think about rethinking them.

The plans are what have been developed in the last few years and supercede what came about in 2001 and 2005.

Originally Posted by strassenwo!f

Jack, have you have ever looked at the transport systems of other cities, and the amount of planning which is involved? In comparison to the work which goes on in many European cities about general planning and transport planning the DTO's work was quite obviously minimal. I'm sure they did their best within their remit, but it was minimal.

I certainly have - I have a little library of books on them and have travelled on many of the best European and US systems.

In Germany, for example, most of the urban transport systems were developed over decades and are still being developed. During that time, the plans were often changed as circumstances changed. Consider, for example, the orginal plans for U3 in Nuremburg or U4 in Hamburg as formulated four decades ago to what is being built today.

Amsterdam is another good example of plans changing over time as political agendas, funding and public opinion altered.

In the case of Dublin, the core of the old DRRTS plan of 1975 is reflected in the MN-DU plans of today - ie, two intersecting undeground lines in the city centre, albeit with stations in different locations. Dublin has not suffered for lack of good plans but lack of political will, imagination and vision - and no end of political interference, bad decisions and cute-hooring which ensured that funding was never made available, even when it was there.

Originally Posted by strassenwo!f

Well, yes, that's what I'm saying. There's no cash, and the previous projects didn't get the go-ahead when there was lots of it. It's going to be a long time before the country is as rich as it was in the years around the T21 project. If they didn't get the green light then, maybe they weren't the right projects.

The big difference today is that both MN and DU have detailed plans and railway orders and most, if not all the land/property required for both is now in State hands. What's missing is (a) funding and (b) political will.

Originally Posted by strassenwo!f

Unfortunately, this is European political stuff, which is over my handsome little head.

Everything depends on what happens to the euro and how the EU's politicians tackle the current crisis. If they FUBAR it, then wondering when DartU goes ahead will be the least of our worries.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by strassenwo!f

But not part of the T21 plan, which is the most recent plan produced by the Dept. of Transport.

T21 wasn't a plan, it was a funding envelope / budget fudge.

If it was a plan, surely it would have been longer than 11 pages and if I can ask, what is the scope of the Atlantic Corridor?

[strassenwo!f]

Originally Posted by Victor

T21 wasn't a plan, it was a funding envelope / budget fudge.

If it was a plan, surely it would have been longer than 11 pages and if I can ask, what is the scope of the Atlantic Corridor?

In answer to your question, I've no idea.

In fact, I've forgotten what the Atlantic Corridor is, though I've a vague recollection that I knew about it at some stage.

Where does it fit in to a discussion about the DART underground project?

[antoinolachtnai]

It is worth looking at this density map.

http://airomaps.nuim.ie/flexviewer/?...Census2011.xml

Density is very low west of Adamstown and North of Malahide, even Clongriffin. If you are building a tunnel, you really want it to connect to the Western Line. There is a lot more population over that way.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by strassenwo!f

In answer to your question, I've no idea.

In fact, I've forgotten what the Atlantic Corridor is, though I've a vague recollection that I knew about it at some stage.

Where does it fit in to a discussion about the DART underground project?

Just proving the point that T21 wasn't a plan.

Originally Posted by antoinolachtnai

It is worth looking at this density map.

http://airomaps.nuim.ie/flexviewer/?...Census2011.xml

Density is very low west of Adamstown and North of Malahide, even Clongriffin. If you are building a tunnel, you really want it to connect to the Western Line. There is a lot more population over that way.

While the suburban fringe is closer there, you have to remember the amount of journeys that the N4, N7 and the Cork mainline bring to the Heuston area and are badly fed along the quays and Grand Canal. In contrast, while Maynooth to Castleknock do represent a large population, there is nothing in the Phoenix Park and along the River Liffey as far as Leixlip.

Aside from that, there are already 4 tracks from Connolly to Cabra, beyond that, the main constraints are the level crossings and lack of feeder services, not the track.

[antoinolachtnai]

That is why it would be prudent to link the three railways (western, northern, Cork) into the tunnel, not just two, and to link the Phoenix Park Tunnel as well. You would be able to do this all with a well designed single tunnel from Heuston to Docklands.

[strassenwo!f]

Originally Posted by Victor

Just proving the point that T21 wasn't a plan.

Victor, you don't think it was a plan. I also don't think it was a plan.

The fact remains that the DOT, CIE, the RPA and everybody else in the publicly-owned transport sector acted as if it was a plan. Why else would there have been T21 logos on practically every bus and bus shelter in the country?

[AngryLips]

Originally Posted by strassenwo!f

Victor, you don't think it was a plan. I also don't think it was a plan.

The fact remains that the DOT, CIE, the RPA and everybody else in the publicly-owned transport sector acted as if it was a plan. Why else would there have been T21 logos on practically every bus and bus shelter in the country?

Regardless of whether or not it was a plan, the fact remains that pretty much all recently completed and planned-but-not-delivered transport projects mooted by T21 (or Platform for Change for that matter) were CBA'd on the assumption that all other aspects of the recommendations would be delivered as well.

[markpb]

Originally Posted by strassenwo!f

Why else would there have been T21 logos on practically every bus and bus shelter in the country?

Because they were ordered to by the DoT, presumably for political point scoring.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by strassenwo!f

Victor, you don't think it was a plan. I also don't think it was a plan.

The fact remains that the DOT, CIE, the RPA and everybody else in the publicly-owned transport sector acted as if it was a plan. Why else would there have been T21 logos on practically every bus and bus shelter in the country?

Advertising and political advantage.

[strassenwo!f]

Originally Posted by Victor

Just proving the point that T21 wasn't a plan.

So, okay Victor, that wasn't a plan.

The DTO had an earlier plan, which in fairness involved a lot of crayon work, and now there's a lot of designing being done on the Luas BXD line, which was not part of that plan.

So it looks like their back-of-the-envelope plan isn't being implemented either.

It seems that, 12 years in, there is no plan from this millenium which is being implemented.