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Barrister Salary Cap

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Comments

  • #32
    Tom Young
    Legal Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tom Young


    Would you pick a dentist for a triple bypass? If the answer is yes, then thats fine!


  • #33
    marinbike
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 63 ✭✭marinbike


    servicecharge wrote: »
    This is a crazy thread. Most barristers at 5 years experience would, at a good guess, earn an average of 60-100k a year.

    Our good friends in the ESB have average salaries larger than this. Middle ranking to senior gardai earn more than this.

    Likewise middle to senior manangement in most civil service posts earn similiar amounts.

    So why pick barristers? They have longer educations than all the above, the are also sole practitioners meaning it isn't an easy job and they don't have the pensions and associated benefits of all the above.

    If you want to cap pay I would suggest starting with the public sector.


    Thats so typical of the law society: using the fact they done a few yrs of 'Law' education to justify such costs. Barristers will almost certainly live a happy life, no matter what recession hits Ireland.

    Its unbelieveable how much greed some people acquire these days.

    The current cost of legal fees from Barristers is crazy. I could become a barrister in a few years but I still wouldn't rip-off my clients. Maybe you would?


  • #34
    servicecharge
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭servicecharge


    Marinbike: I love the way you quote me but then don't address any of my points.

    Again my points is that barristers are, on average, paid similar rates to their equivalents in the civil and public service.

    Nobody wants to address that point.

    I'd also point out that unemployment across both legal professions is running at over 10%. So I very much doubt you would succeed in becoming a barrister in the first place, let alone have an opportunity to charge any fees.

    (And just to let you know the law society represents solicitors not barristers. If you can't even figure that out I really doubt you'll ever make the grade)


  • #35
    servicecharge
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭servicecharge


    To add to my above post re salaries levels of barristers and civil servants.

    According to the competition authority the average salary of barristers of 7 to 9 years experience is €81,000 (with a median of 63k).http://www.tca.ie/templates/index.aspx?pageid=932

    The average ESB salary, as reported in the media recently, is €92,000 (with poolebeg staff being 142k). http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1001/energy.html

    I like to see some people address these figures on the board. And remember barristers have an office to run and don't get pensions, so their salaries are significantly lower than the ESB.


  • #36
    servicecharge
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭servicecharge


    I see some hard facts killed this thread!


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  • #37
    nuac
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    Many do not realise that the Bar is one of the last of the free markets. Any solicitor large firm or one (wo)man operation can consult one of the leading specialists in e.g. planning, family law,crime or whatever at the Law Library.

    If the bar did not practice through the Law Library system there is a risk that they would become linked to the big 5 offices, this further polarising legal services.

    A good barrister in your corner in an important matter is worth the money.

    I havent read any survey about comparative costs for legal services, but I hae had experience of seeing very high charges by lawyers in UK and USA.


  • #38
    Skopzz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Skopzz


    servicecharge wrote: »
    To add to my above post re salaries levels of barristers and civil servants.

    According to the competition authority the average salary of barristers of 7 to 9 years experience is €81,000 (with a median of 63k).http://www.tca.ie/templates/index.aspx?pageid=932

    The average ESB salary, as reported in the media recently, is €92,000 (with poolebeg staff being 142k). http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1001/energy.html

    I like to see some people address these figures on the board. And remember barristers have an office to run and don't get pensions, so their salaries are significantly lower than the ESB.


    €81,000 salary is a mini-jackpot. Most people in the private sector are on €24,000 - €35,000 per annum. You're trying to say thats the same as a Barristers salary of €81,000? Even so, Irish Barristers are earning a lot more than Barristers in any other Eurozone country.

    The prices irish Barristers charge are very high. Most private sector workers have led by example and taken a pay cut. But the ones at the top (Barristers, Lawers, Architects, Doctors etc.) are still cash greedy. Yes, they are the ones refusing to drop their fees and hopefully, they get no business as a result. Otherwise, the tax rate on such high earners should double as a deterrant.

    You claim that irish barristers have an office to run, but thats no different than someone who runs a local business from their office.


  • #39
    maidhc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,473 ✭✭✭maidhc


    Skopzz wrote: »
    €81,000 salary is a mini-jackpot. Most people in the private sector are on €24,000 - €35,000 per annum. You're trying to say thats the same as a Barristers salary of €81,000? Even so, Irish Barristers are earning a lot more than Barristers in any other Eurozone country.

    A barrister has to

    1) go to college (3-4 yrs)
    2) Do inns exams
    3) Go to the inns (1 year)
    4) Work for free (1 year)
    5) Work for peanuts (dry roasted or ready salted, they are allowed to choose) (1-5years)

    So by the time they are are 30+ they are just beginning to work. The person who left school at 18 has already earned close to half a million at this point if they made an effort, the barrister is probably in debt to all and sundry.

    And this assumes they actually made it at all. Many don't survive.


  • #40
    Johnny Utah
    Registered Users Posts: 2,157 ✭✭✭Johnny Utah


    Skopzz wrote: »
    €81,000 salary is a mini-jackpot. Most people in the private sector are on €24,000 - €35,000 per annum. You're trying to say thats the same as a Barristers salary of €81,000? Even so, Irish Barristers are earning a lot more than Barristers in any other Eurozone country.

    The prices irish Barristers charge are very high. Most private sector workers have led by example and taken a pay cut. But the ones at the top (Barristers, Lawers, Architects, Doctors etc.) are still cash greedy. Yes, they are the ones refusing to drop their fees and hopefully, they get no business as a result. Otherwise, the tax rate on such high earners should double as a deterrant.

    You claim that irish barristers have an office to run, but thats no different than someone who runs a local business from their office.



    - Architects are going through a tough time at the moment. I think it's unfair to label them, in particular, as "cash greedy".

    - The fees charged by Irish barristers, by international standards, are not high imo. If anything, both branches of the Irish legal profession in this country are vastly overpopulated compared to other countries of similar size, thereby creating a more competitive market.

    - Doctors, in Ireland, operate in a closed shop.


  • #41
    Thomas_S_Hunterson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,151 ✭✭✭Thomas_S_Hunterson


    Skopzz wrote: »
    €81,000 salary is a mini-jackpot. Most people in the private sector are on €24,000 - €35,000 per annum. You're trying to say thats the same as a Barristers salary of €81,000? Even so, Irish Barristers are earning a lot more than Barristers in any other Eurozone country.

    The prices irish Barristers charge are very high. Most private sector workers have led by example and taken a pay cut. But the ones at the top (Barristers, Lawers, Architects, Doctors etc.) are still cash greedy. Yes, they are the ones refusing to drop their fees and hopefully, they get no business as a result. Otherwise, the tax rate on such high earners should double as a deterrant.

    You claim that irish barristers have an office to run, but thats no different than someone who runs a local business from their office.
    rofl


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  • #42
    Reloc8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭Reloc8


    You might as well debate whether plumbers, carpenters, electricians or any other self-employed professional should have their salaries capped.

    Seriously...if we're talking about barristers engaged in practice as barristers (and not people employed who are qualified barristers)...how can you possibly say that they should have a salary cap ? Does that mean if they have earned the limit they are not allowed take any more clients for that year ?


  • #43
    Skopzz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Skopzz


    Reloc8 wrote: »
    You might as well debate whether plumbers, carpenters, electricians or any other self-employed professional should have their salaries capped.

    Seriously...if we're talking about barristers engaged in practice as barristers (and not people employed who are qualified barristers)...how can you possibly say that they should have a salary cap ? Does that mean if they have earned the limit they are not allowed take any more clients for that year ?

    The self employed have taken a pay cut already. Its the Barristers & Attorneys, the Doctors, the Dentists etc. who are still pinching the cash out of peoples pockets.

    The country can't afford that.


  • #44
    dermot_sheehan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭dermot_sheehan


    Alot of misinformation in this thread.

    The fact is good legal advice and good advocacy are valuable things that can save a client multitudes of what it costs. For this reason in a free market clients are willing to pay for top legal advice, if a limit was placed on payment, other mechanisms of rationing legal skill would have to be imposed.


  • #45
    Reloc8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭Reloc8


    Skopzz wrote: »
    The self employed have taken a pay cut already. Its the Barristers & Attorneys, the Doctors, the Dentists etc. who are still pinching the cash out of peoples pockets.

    The country can't afford that.
    You are 100% correct.

    You should probably report these thefts to your local garda station.


  • #46
    Skopzz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Skopzz


    Johnny Utah wrote: »

    - The fees charged by Irish barristers, by international standards, are not high imo. If anything, both branches of the Irish legal profession in this country are vastly overpopulated compared to other countries of similar size, thereby creating a more competitive market.

    - Doctors, in Ireland, operate in a closed shop.

    Thats so misleading....

    Their fees are among the highest in the Eurozone. Theres very poor competition at present because most Irish Barristers are closely following the prices of other Barristers (which are already too high). Anyway, theres a culture of 'I deserve more' still rampant in the Irish Legal profession.


  • #47
    Tester46
    Registered Users Posts: 557 ✭✭✭Tester46


    Skopzz wrote: »
    Thats so misleading....

    Their fees are among the highest in the Eurozone. Theres very poor competition at present because most Irish Barristers are closely following the prices of other Barristers (which are already too high). Anyway, theres a culture of 'I deserve more' still rampant in the Irish Legal profession.

    You wouldn't by any chance have any hard facts to back up your wild allegations?;)


  • #48
    marinbike
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 63 ✭✭marinbike


    servicecharge wrote: »
    Marinbike: I love the way you quote me but then don't address any of my points.

    Again my points is that barristers are, on average, paid similar rates to their equivalents in the civil and public service.

    Nobody wants to address that point.

    I'd also point out that unemployment across both legal professions is running at over 10%. So I very much doubt you would succeed in becoming a barrister in the first place, let alone have an opportunity to charge any fees.

    (And just to let you know the law society represents solicitors not barristers. If you can't even figure that out I really doubt you'll ever make the grade)

    Servicecharge,

    The civil and public service pay rates are about to be cut in next weeks budget. What excuse will you and the Bar Council be using after that?!

    The Bar Council (back in 2002) said 'we shall not be changed'. The Barristers employed by the state are contributing to the €22bn Exchequer Deficit. Of course Barristers would revolt against salary cuts but this will (and must) happen sooner rather than later. The pay rates are no longer applicable to the post-celtic tiger days. The problem was that their salaries were allowed to keep balooning (without anyone challenging this) and that was wrong. I am personally in favour of reform but nobody wants to pay their part. If everyone had that attitude, the country would be screwed.


  • #49
    Reloc8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭Reloc8


    marinbike wrote: »
    Servicecharge,

    The civil and public service pay rates are about to be cut in next weeks budget. What excuse will you and the Bar Council be using after that?!

    The Bar Council (back in 2002) said 'we shall not be changed'. The Barristers employed by the state are contributing to the €22bn Exchequer Deficit. Of course Barristers would revolt against salary cuts but this will (and must) happen sooner rather than later. The pay rates are no longer applicable to the post-celtic tiger days. The problem was that their salaries were allowed to keep balooning (without anyone challenging this) and that was wrong. I am personally in favour of reform but nobody wants to pay their part. If everyone had that attitude, the country would be screwed.

    Look, barristers in practice do not get salaries.

    Secondly, barrister's engaged to act for the State and state entities have already had cuts imposed on their fees per case in line with all other service providers to the State and state employees.

    Thirdly, barristers in practice do not get salaries.

    If you are referring to qualified barristers who are employed by the State then you are talking about Public/Civil Servants.


  • #50
    marinbike
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 63 ✭✭marinbike


    Reloc8 wrote: »
    Look, barristers in practice do not get salaries.

    Secondly, barrister's engaged to act for the State and state entities have already had cuts imposed on their fees per case in line with all other service providers to the State and state employees.

    Thirdly, barristers in practice do not get salaries.

    If you are referring to qualified barristers who are employed by the State then you are talking about Public/Civil Servants.

    True, I addressed the civil/public service issue that servicecharge asked me to address above. Parallels were drawn between the civil service and Barristers when it came to defending the Barristers wages. That inferiority won't exist after next week when the government cuts the civil service pay.


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