[plissken]

Originally Posted by Relevant

Also, there is no overtaking lane on a dual carriageway

Jesus wept.

Originally Posted by Zube

Correct, in the Rules of the Road, the left hand lane of a dual carriageway is clearly stated to be for trucks, mopeds and learner drivers, and the right hand lane is for muppets who never read the Rules.

No, he isnt. Honestly, have either of you got full licences. I simply cant believe that anyone could possibly think the right lane on a dual carriage-way is not an overtaking lane i honestly cant.

From the RSA website(this wont be news to any competent drivers)

Dual carriageways are roads with two or more lanes of traffic travelling in each direction. The outer or right-hand lane in each direction is the lane nearest to the centre of the dual carriageway.

You must normally drive in the left-hand lane of a dual carriageway. You may use the outer lane of a two-lane or three-lane dual carriageway only:

for overtaking, and
when intending to turn right a short distance ahead.

[markpb]

The law is stated fine - it stops people driving dangerously (ie putting yourself in a position where a person dropping from lane 2 to lane 1 could be impeded by a person undertaking) while simultaneously avoiding penalising people who drift past a person in lane 2 because of heavy traffic. Where it falls down is that it assumes all other drivers are obeying the law, i.e. they're in the overtaking lane only to overtake and could move back into the first lane at any time.

This is the spirit of the law but it's let down by the fact that people are idiots and drive in the overtaking lane unnecessarily. If you undertake at speed and they move back into the first lane, you'll be at fault for undertaking - the fact that they were driving below the speed limit is irrelevant.

[cormac_byrne]

Originally Posted by MYOB

The white line is too wide to legally count as a continuous white line, you can cross it at any time. Its also not a seperate carriageway, when open to all traffic it becomes the driving lane...

Where did you get these ideas from?

Certainly not from the rules of the road or RSA website.

If the bus lane is not a separate carriageway then how do the busses and taxis get away with undertaking all the time?

[markpb]

Originally Posted by cormac_byrne

If the bus lane is not a separate carriageway then how do the busses and taxis get away with undertaking all the time?

In keeping with the spirit of the law, they can undertake quite safely. No-one should be moving from lane 2 to lane 1 (the bus lane) so there's no risk of collision.

[seamus]

Originally Posted by markpb

If you undertake at speed and they move back into the first lane, you'll be at fault for undertaking - the fact that they were driving below the speed limit is irrelevant.

This is not strictly correct where lanes are concerned. When changing lanes, you must give way to traffic already in that lane. That it's a lane on your left is irrelevant. If it was a single lane, and someone went to undertake you as you were turning left, then you'd be right - he's at fault. But when changing lanes you must yield to traffic in the other lane, regardless of whether you're going left or right.

[cormac_byrne]

Originally Posted by markpb

In keeping with the spirit of the law, they can undertake quite safely. No-one should be moving from lane 2 to lane 1 (the bus lane) so there's no risk of collision.

Exactly! "No-one should be moving from lane 2 to lane 1 (the bus lane)"
i.e. taxis & buses in that lane stay there

And it's the same for an out of hours bus lane.
except cars too can enter the bus lane.

But remember you enter the bus lane by crossing a dotted line and exit the same or at a junction. You should not cross the fat white line and the same goes for buses/taxis. (except for as per ROTR to avoid obstacles etc...)

If you ask RSA can I use an out of hours bus lane for undertaking,
"i.e drive in regular lane, move into bus lane to undertake, then back into regular lane", then of course they will say no.

But if you ask can I drive in an out of hours lane just like a bus does, surely they must say yes.

[sneakyST]

Originally Posted by MYOB

The white line is too wide to legally count as a continuous white line, you can cross it at any time. Its also not a seperate carriageway, when open to all traffic it becomes the driving lane...

Incorrect according to the guard who pulled me over for doing it. I crossed the white line 10 yards too early before a traffic lights. Gave me a warning but no fine. I asked him does the same rule apply to a white line down the middle and he said yes. It was news to me at the time.

[cormac_byrne]

From the RSA:-

"The out of hours bus lane can be used by any vehicular traffic for normal driving, and if any driver wishes to overtake the vehicle in front of him he may do so on the right provided it is SAFE to do so.

A driver MUST not overtake other traffic in a out of hours bus lane, with the exception when traffic is queuing in both lanes."

i.e. out of hours you can use the bus lane
(note they didn't say must use)

you can cross the fat white line to overtake,
but you can't use the bus lane to undertake,
unless traffic is queuing in both lanes

-------------------------------------------------

Full text of my query and reply from the RSA

Dear Mr. Byrne



Thank you for your e-mail regarding the use of “out of hours” bus lanes by cars. Please see attached response from Mr. Pat xxxx, Driver Testing Supervisor. I hope this is of assistance to you and should you require any further information please do not hesitate to contact the Road Safety Authority again.



Kind Regards

Elizabeth yyyyy

Road Safety Authority



Hi Elizabeth



In reply to the first question the bus lane should not be used during the hours shown on the information sign.



The out of hours bus lane can be used by any vehicular traffic for normal driving, and if any driver wishes to overtake the vehicle in front of him he may do so on the right provided it is SAFE to do so.



A driver MUST not overtake other traffic in a out of hours bus lane, with the exception when traffic is queuing in both lanes.



This should clarify the query.





Regards

Pat xxxxxx



-----Original Message-----

From: Cormac Byrne [mailto:cormac_byrne@zzzzzzzzzzzz]

Sent: 11 March 2009 12:54

To: Info

Subject: Car useage of 'out of hours' bus lanes





info@rsa.ie



Hi,

I have some queries relating to bus lanes



Bus lanes are separated form other carriageways by a fat white line.

I presume this makes it separate from the other carriageways and thus allows buses / taxis to 'undertake' traffic which is to their right.

I also presume that once in the bus lane they may not leave it by crossing the white line.

The only way to enter / leave a bus lane is at the start / end or at a junction.

crossing the fat white line is only allowed to avoid obstacles etc... (as stated in the rules of the road)

therefore once in a bus lane you cannot overtake a vehicle directly in front of you (as that would be crossing a continuous white line)



Am I correct?



Where there are 'out of hours' bus lanes the rules are exactly the same except that cars as well as buses & taxis may enter the bus lane.

Cars have the option of using the bus lane or not at their own discretion.



Is this correct?



There are many people who say that an out of hours bus lane should be treated as a regular carriageway.

i.e. cars should use it in preference to their regular lane (by the always drive in the left lane rule)

and the regular car lane is now for overtaking only (and the fat white line doesn't mean the same as a regular continous line i.e. you can cross it to overtake)



can the ROTR website be updated to state clearly this is not the case?

(or if I am totally wrong, clarification added to make it clear where I'm going wrong)

[markpb]

Originally Posted by cormac_byrne

From the RSA:-

"The out of hours bus lane can be used by any vehicular traffic for normal driving, and if any driver wishes to overtake the vehicle in front of him he may do so on the right provided it is SAFE to do so.

A driver MUST not overtake other traffic in a out of hours bus lane, with the exception when traffic is queuing in both lanes."

i.e. out of hours you can use the bus lane
(note they didn't say must use)

Presumably they didn't need to tell you that since it's covered by the "keep left unless overtaking" law.

[cormac_byrne]

Originally Posted by markpb

Presumably they didn't need to tell you that since it's covered by the "keep left unless overtaking" law.

I've asked them to clarify that.

And I've also asked them to point out where in the road traffic acts it defines the 'fat white line' that separates the bus lane so I can see that it is different to any other white line e.g. it states it's ok to cross it.

[Dearg81]

Its sounds like the normal rules for a continous white line don't apply while the bus lane is out of hours then as you are allowed to overtake in the right lane while in the bus lane even though you are crossing a continous white line. Very confusing

[cormac_byrne]

RSA have confirmed to me that out of hours on a bus lane the "keep left unless overtaking" rule does apply. i.e. it is compulsary to use the bus lane.

and as for

"A driver MUST not overtake other traffic in a out of hours bus lane, with the exception when traffic is queuing in both lanes"

they have confirmed that this applies to buses and taxis too (out of hours)

[Cookie_Monster]

Originally Posted by cormac_byrne

"A driver MUST not overtake other traffic in a out of hours bus lane, with the exception when traffic is queuing in both lanes"

they have confirmed that this applies to buses and taxis too (out of hours)

nothing about undertaking then

[OldmanMondeo]

Originally Posted by hedgeh0g

Say for example a L driver is doing 20 KM in the right lane and the bus lane is
empty and legal for me to use, (Im not a taxi) can I undertake it in this car using the bus lane?

Was in this exact situation last Friday evening, couple of cars in front of me, all behind a L driver. The cars in front all undertook via the buslane. There are 2 reasons why I refused to do so,

1. It is a Bus lane and I don't drive a PSV
2. We all at had to learn to drive, not one of us got into a car first time and knew how to drive.

edit: no-one under took me, even though there was plenty of room, either they had the same respect for the ROTR and the Learner or they were concered about a silver ford mondeo....

[Cookie_Monster]

Originally Posted by OldmanMondeo

edit: no-one under took me, even though there was plenty of room, either they had the same respect for the ROTR and the Learner or they were concered about a silver ford mondeo....

Probably the latter. I think it has become genetically embedded in Irish drivers to react cautiously to Mondeos