[Enkidu]

Originally Posted by Enkidu

Actually Cashel does come from the Latin Castellum. The Eóganachta who built Cashel were a Gaulish tribe who originally didn't speak Irish. They named Cashel after the Roman Castellum which the would have seen in France.

In addition to this I should also say there are a few places in Munster with Gaulish or Latin names due to the migration of the Eóganachta.

[_blank_]

Originally Posted by Enkidu

In addition to this I should also say there are a few places in Munster with Gaulish or Latin names due to the migration of the Eóganachta.

Be interested to know where else.

[Enkidu]

I've consulted a few books and the old Dindshenchas and slowburner's Kilcashel means "Church of the Castellum", coming from the Latin.

[slowburner]

Originally Posted by Enkidu

I've consulted a few books and the old Dindshenchas and slowburner's Kilcashel means "Church of the Castellum", coming from the Latin.

Wow - that has some potentially fascinating implications. Really appreciate your research E - thanks.


What's an old Dindshenchas, by the way?

[Enkidu]

Originally Posted by slowburner

Wow - that has some potentially fascinating implications. Really appreciate your research E - thanks.


What's an old Dindshenchas, by the way?

The Dindshenchas are basically a collection of poems (with extremely complicated poetic meters, they are probably more "technically" brilliant than any other poems in Europe) which originally recited, but later written down by the Bards. They contain information on how every location in Ireland got its name, they are basically "memory poems" for remembering these placename stories.

All the ones we have come to about eight large volumes.

[slowburner]

One more question and then I'll stop annoying you
Would all areas with Cashel in their names, translate as Castellum?

[Enkidu]

Originally Posted by slowburner

One more question and then I'll stop annoying you
Would all areas with Cashel in their names, translate as Castellum?

I anticipated this question so I also looked into this. The answer is yes. Virtually every place with Cashel in it traces in some way to Castellum. Basically the Gauls would have seen a lot of Castellums in their native France built by the Romans. They brought their own imitation of Castellums to Ireland, called Caiseal, from which we get the word. There are only two things to be careful of:

1) There are a few places where Cashel appears from some completely different Irish word being Anglicised, but this is so rare that you don't have to worry about it.

2) More important though is how Caiseal was used. Very early on it referred to building styles associated to traditionally Gaulish families such as the Eóganachta, but later it just became a type of buliding. An analogy would be Gothic churches, which were original a type of French church, but then became just a building style used everywhere. So some cashels are Gaulish castellums of Gaulish families and others are just that building type used by others. Basically they are either:
(a) French-Celtic imitations of the Roman Castellum found in Ireland
or
(b) Irish-Celtic imitations of (a)

Also don't feel bad about the questions, often answering them hones my own knowledge, so ask away!

[slowburner]

Originally Posted by Enkidu

I anticipated this question so I also looked into this. The answer is yes. Virtually every place with Cashel in it traces in some way to Castellum. Basically the Gauls would have seen a lot of Castellums in their native France built by the Romans. They brought their own imitation of Castellums to Ireland, called Caiseal, from which we get the word. There are only two things to be careful of:

1) There are a few places where Cashel appears from some completely different Irish word being Anglicised, but this is so rare that you don't have to worry about it.

2) More important though is how Caiseal was used. Very early on it referred to building styles associated to traditionally Gaulish families such as the Eóganachta, but later it just became a type of buliding. An analogy would be Gothic churches, which were original a type of French church, but then became just a building style used everywhere. So some cashels are Gaulish castellums of Gaulish families and others are just that building type used by others. Basically they are either:
(a) French-Celtic imitations of the Roman Castellum found in Ireland
or
(b) Irish-Celtic imitations of (a)

Also don't feel bad about the questions, often answering them hones my own knowledge, so ask away!

That's very kind of you, and much appreciated.

I owe you an explanation for my nagging; it's probably loopy but curious nonetheless.
The townland of the 'Church of the Castellum' is adjacent to a townland called 'Tigroney'. I've heard the latter translated as 'The House of the Romans' - ' Tí Ronaí ' (sp.). Feel free to reject this translation

Conventional wisdom states that the Romans never settled in Ireland - and there is no physical evidence (yet) to prove otherwise.
With regard to my back yard; if you look at these two townland names and add the fact that both demarcate a significant source of copper ore and add the fact that the Romans were always on the look out for a fast ingot - it kind of makes the imagination run. They had to have an interest of some description in such a valuable source of metal.
I understand your elucidation of the ways Castellum became ingrained into Irish placenames, but wouldn't it be amazing if this particular Cashel had a more direct link to Rome?

There are remains around here of four or five enclosures which have never been dated - the best guess I've heard is that they are late Iron Age to early Medieval: nobody knows for sure and it's highly improbable that they'll warrant enough interest to be excavated. The notable thing about them is that they don't conform to the usual cashel shape - they are 'D' rather than 'O' shaped. They are unique to this small but significant area.

I was lucky enough to have an archaeologist friend come to have a look at one of the sites around here which has the almost completely remains of a medieval church, an (iron age?) enclosure and possibly a mass burial from 1798, not to mention two barrows and possibly the outer ditch of a neolithic enclosure (another archaeologist is due to have a look at this soon). Christians, as you well know, liked to erase the pagan past by building on it. I have to find a bullaun stone (I think I know where it is) to prove that the site was originally pagan.

[Enkidu]

That is fascinating slowburner, particularly the D-shape.

I should say that Caiseal is also the Irish word for a totally Roman Castellum as well, so anything is possible!

Keep us updated, I would be interested to see where this goes.

[slowburner]

Originally Posted by Enkidu

That is fascinating slowburner, particularly the D-shape.

I should say that Caiseal is also the Irish word for a totally Roman Castellum as well, so anything is possible!

Keep us updated, I would be interested to see where this goes.

Have me doubts that it'll go where I would like, but it will be an interesting journey - has been this far anyway.
I was having great difficulty finding the date of the church within the enclosure, but it's funny how things go.
Today, I called in to the local IT centre, just for the crack, to see a record from 1798. The girl directed me to a box full of baptism, death and marriage certs which she said were in a complete mess but I was welcome to have a look. I was delighted. I was even more delighted when she said I could take them home!
To cut a long story short - the records were of no use to me but sandwiched in amongst the papers was a loose sheet which dated the church to its demise in 1130. The (unknown) author noted the presence of several antiquities on the site which he reckoned to be prehistoric.

Do you think that the translation of Tí Ronaí as the House of the Romans, could be justified?

[slowburner]

I came across this today (not too sure what it's got to do with ancient Irish and Basque - might start a thread over in History & Heritage if I'm getting up anyone's nose )

following note in Dr. Joyce's History
of Irish Place Names :
6i Tigroney, the
name of a place between Rathdrum
and Arklow, but beside Avoca, is the
ancient church or House of the Romans,
where Palladius, St. Patrick's predecessor,
erected a church during his short
visit to this coast."
The church in Tigroney is thought to
have been the first Catholic church built
in Ireland; hence, to mark the event,
there is but one townland of the name
in Ireland.

[slowburner]

Enkidu, I have quoted what you say above about Castellum in a new thread over in History and Heritage forum - i hope you don't mind

I spent yesterday afternoon with an eminent archaeologist having a look at various ruins in the area - he wasn't overly enthused by my loopy theory

[slowburner]

Here's the link to the thread over in History & Heritage.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2056368653

While I was here, I was cluttering the forum with off topic historical questions - now I'm cluttering up the history forum with linguistics questions