[philologos]

Originally Posted by Zaynzma

I don't know what version of the bible you're using but "a prophet from among His (ie God's) own people" is not the wording I have in my copies of the bible. The phrase used in Deut 18:18 is "from among their (Moses's people) brethren". And with this wording it could apply as much to Muhammad as to Jesus, peace be upon them.

Muhammad isn't an Israelite. In the Torah references to "brethren" and "brothers" generally refer to the fellow Israelites. Moses was speaking to the Israelites therefore it would be most prudent when reading such Scriptures to note this.

Originally Posted by Zaynzma

Jesus pbuh is 'brethren' to Moses's people because they have ancestors who were brothers (the common ancestor is Jacob, whose son Levi is Moses's ancestor and whose other son Judah is Jesus's ancestor according to the family tree in the NT**.

Moses was with people from all tribes of Israel when leading them back to the Promised Land. This doesn't just include the Levites. Moses would have to have been only talking to the Levites for that to be valid. Since we have no evidence of this, and plenty to the contrary in other passages it is prudent to note that Moses is speaking of the Israelite people, not of a particular tribe.

Originally Posted by Zaynzma

However, Muhammad pbuh is also brethren to Moses's (pbuh) people in exactly the same way ie they share a common ancestor and they also have ancestors who were brothers (the CA is Abraham and the brothers are Ishmael and Isaac peace and blessings on them all).

We all share a common ancestor if we go back far enough. The first is Adam, the second is Noah, however one has to be careful about context when reading the Bible.

Originally Posted by Zaynzma

Also, when God says He will raise up a prophet "like unto thee (Moses)" in what way was Jesus like Moses (pbut)?.

Rather simple. Both brought a covenant from God to people. Moses brought the Old Covenant, Jesus Christ brought the New Covenant and grace to us through His blood.

Originally Posted by Zaynzma

Prophet Muhammad pbuh, born and died in the usual way, first rejected then accepted by his people and was a spiritual and temporal leader of the community, receiver of revelation, married and had children......all this exactly like Moses pbuh. Whereas Jesus pbuh.....? miraculous birth, mysterious 'death', celibate, short ministry - and according to Christians, Son of God or actually God made man - very different from Moses pbuh.

It's rather simple. For humans to be able to relate to God best, God deemed it best that He would humble Himself into human form. Pretty much in the same way I couldn't relate to an animal unless I became an animal.

That is my main issue with Islam. It seems to desecrate who Jesus Christ was and is, and is to come. God relating to us through human flesh makes a lot of sense when one considers it. God seems so far beyond us, but to think that the Son of God, a part of the Holy Trinity lived among us is amazing.

God knows human struggles, and trials. God knows pain. God knows all of these things intimately as He lived in this world. That's what I love about Christianity.

What is awesome about Jesus as God incarnate is that God thought we were worth humbling Himself for.

Originally Posted by Philippians 2:1

So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The reason that Jesus was so incredible was because He was willing to go to the very end for us.

He died so that we might be born again through His conquering of the grave. His Resurrection:

Originally Posted by Romans 6:1-11

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Originally Posted by Zaynzma

I hope I haven't broken any rules by going off track but this discussion seemed to be fairly wide ranging anyway.

Don't worry about offending me. I am okay with your objections. In fact I'm glad that I have had a chance to share with you about what I believe, and I am glad that I can more fully understand Islam.

I thank God for all respectful discussion, especially about Him.

Originally Posted by Zaynzma

**If we consider the immaculate conception the very notion of a human ancestor is wrong but I suppose that's a whole nother discussion. Also note that Moses is not strictly speaking a Jew (from the tribe of Judah) he is a Levite).

Yes, Jew was incorrect. I should have said Israelite.

[Zaynzma]

Thank you very much for taking the time and trouble to respond in so much detail. I'm not very familiar with using these boards so I can't put all the quotes like you did but I will try to respond in the same order that you wrote in and hope it will be clear which bits I am replying to.

Firstly, you dismissed the familial relationship between the Ishmaelites and the Israelites as no more significant than that between all human beings. This is not correct. At the time God is reckoned to have spoken to Moses in Deut 18:18, only a few generations separated them from the brothers from whom they were descended (Ishmael and Isaac respectively). Nor can all humans be said to have descended from a pair of brothers (& their wives of course).

I don't accept your statement that 'brethren' exclusively refers to Israelites as a group. It is used in that context sometimes, yes. However, it also has a general meaning of 'descendents of 2 or more brothers'. So when God describes the 12 tribes as 'brethren' to each other he means (eg) that the Levites are brethren to the Benjaminites, not (in this case) that the Levites are brethren to each other (see Deut 18:1 for an illustration of what I mean). However of course the Levites are brethren to each other in another sense, as they are descended from the 3 brothers who were the sons of Levi (see 18:7 for an illustration of this use of the word 'brethren'). So in conclusion () it seems perfectly reasonable to me to refer to the descendents of Ishmael as 'brethren' of the descendents of Isaac.

You say that when God told Moses pbuh that He would raise up a prophet "like unto thee" he was referring to the bringing of a covenant. Moses brought a covenant and Jesus brought a covenant. But this doesn't really make sense. Why would God say "a prophet like you" IF the person to whom He was referring was not much "like Moses" at all, but was in fact God Himself made flesh by means of a miraculous birth and who would be sacrificing Himself in a bloody death and being miraculously resurrected? It seems far less of a stretch to believe that when God said "a prophet like you" He meant another prophet who would be very like Moses in lots of ways.

Now, to move on - are you seriously comparing your inability to relate to an animal to God's supposed inability to relate to us (without taking on human form)? Can I just point out a rather obvious difference here? GOD IS OUR CREATOR. You did not create the animal that is why you have a limited understanding of what it's like to be one. God, sublime and glorious is He, understands us perfectly and has no need of walking on earth with two legs to understand us better. He knows us completely, He understands us absolutely. He created us. Do you deny His Omniscience? I urge you to reflect further on this. I bear witness that God is the Knower of Hearts and His knowledge encompasses everything, there is nothing about which He is unaware.

You explained what you love about Christianity so I will say that what I love about Islam is it states plainly and unequivically that God forgives sin without the need for any innocent blood to be spilled. He loves us and freely forgives us asking only for our sincere repentance.

I don't get on the computer very often so I may not be able to come on this thread again for a while.

[philologos]

Originally Posted by Zaynzma

Firstly, you dismissed the familial relationship between the Ishmaelites and the Israelites as no more significant than that between all human beings. This is not correct. At the time God is reckoned to have spoken to Moses in Deut 18:18, only a few generations separated them from the brothers from whom they were descended (Ishmael and Isaac respectively). Nor can all humans be said to have descended from a pair of brothers (& their wives of course).

Israelite refers to those descended from Jacob. There was no Ishmaelite present to hear the words that Moses was speaking.

Indeed, the Israelites although being God's chosen were as fallible as anyone else. However, you are taking the Bible out of context when you are saying that "brethren" in reference to the Israelite people is referring to Ishmaelites. We could make a prophesy mean anything we like if we take your means of interpretation.

Originally Posted by Zaynzma

I don't accept your statement that 'brethren' exclusively refers to Israelites as a group. It is used in that context sometimes, yes.

Throughout all of Deuteronomy, Moses is speaking to the Israelites.

Originally Posted by Zaynzma

However, it also has a general meaning of 'descendents of 2 or more brothers'. So when God describes the 12 tribes as 'brethren' to each other he means (eg) that the Levites are brethren to the Benjaminites, not (in this case) that the Levites are brethren to each other (see Deut 18:1 for an illustration of what I mean). However of course the Levites are brethren to each other in another sense, as they are descended from the 3 brothers who were the sons of Levi (see 18:7 for an illustration of this use of the word 'brethren'). So in conclusion () it seems perfectly reasonable to me to refer to the descendents of Ishmael as 'brethren' of the descendents of Isaac.

The Levites are brethren to the Benjaminites because all of these tribes are descended from Israel (Jacob).

It doesn't seem reasonable to me that when Moses was clearly speaking to the Israelites about them as a chosen people having to reclaim the land that God promised them to assert that it really meant something completely different without much basis.

Originally Posted by Zaynzma

You say that when God told Moses pbuh that He would raise up a prophet "like unto thee" he was referring to the bringing of a covenant. Moses brought a covenant and Jesus brought a covenant. But this doesn't really make sense. Why would God say "a prophet like you" IF the person to whom He was referring was not much "like Moses" at all, but was in fact God Himself made flesh by means of a miraculous birth and who would be sacrificing Himself in a bloody death and being miraculously resurrected? It seems far less of a stretch to believe that when God said "a prophet like you" He meant another prophet who would be very like Moses in lots of ways.

Jesus was like Moses. He was an Israelite, a medium between God and mankind like Moses. Infact the Christian scriptures compare Moses and Jesus quite extensively:

Originally Posted by Hebrews 3:5-6

Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.

Jesus and Moses were both moral teachers. Jesus and Moses both were from lowly backgrounds yet served God all their lives. I don't think it's reasonable to say that there are no similarities. However, Jesus was more than Moses, because Jesus was God's own son. Moses is of infinite value to us as a prophet. Jesus is our Saviour.

What makes you think Jesus was not like Moses? Actually, what makes you think Muhammad was like Moses?

Originally Posted by Zaynzma

Now, to move on - are you seriously comparing your inability to relate to an animal to God's supposed inability to relate to us (without taking on human form)? Can I just point out a rather obvious difference here? GOD IS OUR CREATOR. You did not create the animal that is why you have a limited understanding of what it's like to be one. God, sublime and glorious is He, understands us perfectly and has no need of walking on earth with two legs to understand us better. He knows us completely, He understands us absolutely. He created us. Do you deny His Omniscience? I urge you to reflect further on this. I bear witness that God is the Knower of Hearts and His knowledge encompasses everything, there is nothing about which He is unaware.

Not God's inability, rather our inability to relate to Him in divine terms. God to fully get our understanding had to come to us as one of us. We need help. God gave us that help.

It's why I feel Christianity makes much more sense than Islam. God cared about us, and about our understanding of Him so much that He humbled Himself for us, not only by taking human flesh, but also by being humiliated for our sake.

Originally Posted by Zaynzma

You explained what you love about Christianity so I will say that what I love about Islam is it states plainly and unequivically that God forgives sin without the need for any innocent blood to be spilled. He loves us and freely forgives us asking only for our sincere repentance.

Jesus resurrected in the Christian faith, so it isn't an argument against Christianity. He lives with the Father to this present day.

God is a God of justice, He demands atonement. God is also a God of mercy, bringing our old life to an end, and giving us new life through Him. We become new people when we follow Christ. From what I know, Islam doesn't bring this notion to the table.

However, about your point about the Islamic idea of God. Does the Islamic idea of God judge people in Islam purely on their works? Do you have to work your way to heaven is basically what I am asking? Is strict following of Islamic rituals a key behind salvation? I'm genuinely curious.

Originally Posted by Zaynzma

I don't get on the computer very often so I may not be able to come on this thread again for a while.

No problem.

[imported_guy]

Originally Posted by Yusuf Mirza

I am an Irish convert to Islam living in Galway.

I am a member of the Ahmadiyya Muslim community. We are Muslims who believe that Jesus survived the cross and continued his mission to preach to the 12 tribes of the house of Israel, 10 of whom had been resettled as far away as modern day Afghanistan during the rain or Nebekaneser 500 years earlier.

Furthermore we believe that as Muhammad (saw) is the last Prophet and Islam the last Law that the Messiah will come from among the Muslims. He will be someone with Jesus's characteristics who will claim to be the Messiah.

That person was Hazret Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. We are in 198 countries with over 200 million believers and growing with our own channel
"MTA International" on Shy channel 787.


I would love to hear from anyone who would like to hear the message. Not interested in abuse or ridicule.

The view expressed on this thread are not necessarily the views of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat.


Wasalam
Yusuf

people, this guy doesnt represent the muslim community at large, please do not attempt to argue with him etc, he is 100% wrong, and no muslim scholar will ever issue a fatwa which will say this statement is correct, do not fall for this untrue and blasphemous statement.

i dont even think ahmadiya (just like bahai etc) are considered muslim, by the muslim community.... unlike other sects i.e shia/sunni/wahhabi/sufi which are all considered muslims by the main muslim sects.


As far as i am concerened this is blasphamy (and against the irish blasphamy laws) and shouldnt even be posted in the islamic section.

[Yusuf Mirza]

AA

I am sorry that you feel that way brother

i dont even think ahmadiya (just like bahai etc) are considered muslim, by the muslim community.... unlike other sects i.e shia/sunni/wahhabi/sufi which are all considered muslims by the main muslim sects.

I believe that Sufis are definetly considered KAFIR by Wahabis and WAHABI are considered KAFIR by Sufis. Also Shiah consider all Sunni KAFIR and most SUNNI consider SHIA Kafir. So it is no suprise that we are also considered KAFIR by other MUSLIMS

Here is a quote dear brother that perhaps will enlighten you as you said that no scholar has ever agreed on this thing that Jesus is dead acording to the Holy Quran;


Mahmud Shaltut, former Mufti of Egypt and ex-Rector of al-Azhar University,
Cairo, writes:

i. "There is no authority in the Quran or the Sunna which can satisfy the heart upon
the belief that Jesus was taken up to heaven with his body and that he is still alive there and that he shall descend therefrom to earth in the last days."
(Al-Fatawa, published by Al-Idara al-‘Ama lil-Saqafat al-Islamiyya bil-Azhar, pp. 52-58)

ii. "The Quranic verses in this connection indicate that God had promised Jesus that He would cause him to die at the appointed time, and elevate him to Himself, and protect him from the disbelievers. This promise has been fulfilled. His enemies could not kill him or crucify him; instead, God caused him to die at the end of his appointed term and elevated him to Himself."
(Ibid.)



So you see that according to Al Azhar University in Ciaro this fatwa by the Ullema proves that Jesus died acording to Quran. So the question arises brother that then who will that person be who is to come that will be given the titel Isa Ibn Miriam?

Further on this another quote and fatwa;


In his Quranic commentary, the Shaikh al-Akbar Muhayy-ud-Din Ibn Arabi writes:

"The raising (raf‘) of Jesus means that, at the time of separation, his soul was raised from the lower world to the higher world. And his being in the fourth heaven signifies that the source of his soul’s benefit is the spirituality of that sun’s sky which
resembles the heart of the world, and towards that is his place of return. That
spirituality is a light which illumines that heaven with its love, and the shining of the
rays upon his soul is done by its stimulation. And as Jesus’ place of return is towards its real place of rest, and cannot attain its true development, his (Jesus’) descent in the latter days will be in a different body."


Wasalam

Yusuf

[imported_guy]

Originally Posted by Yusuf Mirza

AA

I am sorry that you feel that way brother

i dont even think ahmadiya (just like bahai etc) are considered muslim, by the muslim community.... unlike other sects i.e shia/sunni/wahhabi/sufi which are all considered muslims by the main muslim sects.

I believe that Sufis are definetly considered KAFIR by Wahabis and WAHABI are considered KAFIR by Sufis. Also Shiah consider all Sunni KAFIR and most SUNNI consider SHIA Kafir. So it is no suprise that we are also considered KAFIR by other MUSLIMS

Here is a quote dear brother that perhaps will enlighten you as you said that no scholar has ever agreed on this thing that Jesus is dead acording to the Holy Quran;


Mahmud Shaltut, former Mufti of Egypt and ex-Rector of al-Azhar University,
Cairo, writes:

i. "There is no authority in the Quran or the Sunna which can satisfy the heart upon
the belief that Jesus was taken up to heaven with his body and that he is still alive there and that he shall descend therefrom to earth in the last days."
(Al-Fatawa, published by Al-Idara al-‘Ama lil-Saqafat al-Islamiyya bil-Azhar, pp. 52-58)

ii. "The Quranic verses in this connection indicate that God had promised Jesus that He would cause him to die at the appointed time, and elevate him to Himself, and protect him from the disbelievers. This promise has been fulfilled. His enemies could not kill him or crucify him; instead, God caused him to die at the end of his appointed term and elevated him to Himself."
(Ibid.)



So you see that according to Al Azhar University in Ciaro this fatwa by the Ullema proves that Jesus died acording to Quran. So the question arises brother that then who will that person be who is to come that will be given the titel Isa Ibn Miriam?

Further on this another quote and fatwa;


In his Quranic commentary, the Shaikh al-Akbar Muhayy-ud-Din Ibn Arabi writes:

"The raising (raf‘) of Jesus means that, at the time of separation, his soul was raised from the lower world to the higher world. And his being in the fourth heaven signifies that the source of his soul’s benefit is the spirituality of that sun’s sky which
resembles the heart of the world, and towards that is his place of return. That
spirituality is a light which illumines that heaven with its love, and the shining of the
rays upon his soul is done by its stimulation. And as Jesus’ place of return is towards its real place of rest, and cannot attain its true development, his (Jesus’) descent in the latter days will be in a different body."


Wasalam

Yusuf

i can post a 100 fatwas saying your non muslim, here is one of them. http://alhafeez.org/rashid/gambia.html

its easy to throw around fatwas against each other, and no sunni and shia dont hate each other, i have shia in my own close family alot of my dad's cousins are shia, but both my mother and father are sunni, how can you say that we hate each other? we just arent very fond of you (ahmadiyya), or the bahhai, and the thing about sufi's and the wahhabi, i dont really care, but shia and sunni, the 2 main sects under islam both consider them to be muslims, i havent come across any fatwas from shia or sunni scholars considering them non muslims, shia vs sunni gig only stands in iran and iraq and the wahabi vs sufi gig only stands true in saudi arabia, everywhere else most muslims (except ahmadiyya) and the bahai, nation of islam etc are considered true muslims.

jesus dieing on the cross is considered blasphmey by all MUSLIMS. you are not muslim, get over it. that is the main difference of belief between muslims and christians.

[TCP/IP_King]

Originally Posted by Yusuf Mirza

these are just 10 of the thousands of mistakes and contredicions in the bible.
Old Testement first......

First hit with Google. This guy has 101 mistakes - and if you read them most are bull$h1t.
E.g.

73. What did the centurion say when Jesus dies?

• “Certainly this man was innocent” (Luke 23:47)
• “Truly this man was the Son of God” (Mark 15:39)

So what !!

[philologos]

I wouldn't consider that a mistake. It's quite conceivable that
a) the centurion said both
b) they are referring to two separate centurions

That isn't a contradiction. Again, googling for contradictions isn't really engaging with the truth of the Gospel, rather it is fishing for a reason not to engage with it.

[TCP/IP_King]

Originally Posted by Jakkass

I wouldn't consider that a mistake. It's quite conceivable that
a) the centurion said both
b) they are referring to two separate centurions

That isn't a contradiction. Again, googling for contradictions isn't really engaging with the truth of the Gospel, rather it is fishing for a reason not to engage with it.

You misunderstood me.
I googled the OPs "mistakes" to see where he was getting his info from and lo and behold >> http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/dawah/0009_page3.htm << turns up with his list plus 101 more.

If you read them they are all "so what" "mistakes" - nothing faith shattering there.

[imported_guy]

Originally Posted by TCP/IP_King

You misunderstood me.
I googled the OPs "mistakes" to see where he was getting his info from and lo and behold >> http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/dawah/0009_page3.htm << turns up with his list plus 101 more.

If you read them they are all "so what" "mistakes" - nothing faith shattering there.

i love it when one religion or athiests pull the contradiction card against another so funny hahaha

[philologos]

TCP/IP_King: I was merely agreeing with you

[Yusuf Mirza]

jesus dieing on the cross is considered blasphmey by all MUSLIMS. you are not muslim, get over it. that is the main difference of belief between muslims and christians.[/quote]


AA Brother


Alhamdoillah, Alhamdoillah brother you have proven your ignorance with this statement as to what Ahmadi Muslims believe. Ahmadi Muslims believe that Jesus did not die on the cross nor was he murdered by the Jews. We believe that he was saved from death on the cross as the Qur’an categorically states;

And their saying, ‘We did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor crucified him, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no definite knowledge thereof, but only follow a conjecture; and they did not convert this conjecture into a certainty;
Al Nisa

The Jews planned to kill him and in doing so prove naoozoobillah in accordance with Deuteronomy 21:23 so that if he was killed in this manner then the Jews could prove his untruthfulness. But AllahT’Allah saved him from the accursed death that the Jews had in store for him. The Christians also say that Isa Ibn Mirriam (as) became accursed for their sins. This is the biggest insult any human being can place upon a Prophet of Allah.

Allah says in this Surah that he was neither killed not crucified but it was made to appear as if he had been crucified. Just as in the Qur’an Prophet Ibrahim was put in the fire but Allah made it cool for him Isa alahi salam was placed upon the cross but alhamdoillah Allah saved him and he was taken down alive. Crucifixion is not the act of being put on the cross but the act of losing one’s life on the cross. This verse proved that Isa only appeared as one who had been crucified. The Jews and Christians believe he died an accursed death (may Allah forgive them). But Allah saved his humble servant.

So Ahmadi Muslims believe that Allah saved Isa from crucifixion.

It’s such a pity that you are so spiteful brother that instead of drawing your own conclusions you, like every mullah just go by the word of the street and whatever way the wind is blowing. Also it shows your naivety (you must be quite young) that you concur ullimah fatwa with your own circle of friends. I know so many non Ahmadi sunni/shiah Muslims including Imams even here in Ireland who have great respect and reverence for Ahmadiyyat Islam. So going by your criteria that means we are accepted by the ullemah right? Or perhaps I was speaking in general terms and not in terms of personal relationships. Bless.

You certainly have the right to express your own beliefs but if you are speaking as a “Muslim” then you must bring the authority of Qur’an with you. (as i have)

Another victim of youtube I think.

Wasalam

Yusuf

[imported_guy]

Originally Posted by Yusuf Mirza

So you see that according to Al Azhar University in Ciaro this fatwa by the Ullema proves that Jesus died acording to Quran. So the question arises brother that then who will that person be who is to come that will be given the titel Isa Ibn Miriam?

you just contradicted yourself there. you reference an alim, who proves jesus died on the cross, and then you come around and say you believe he didnt die on the cross


make up your mind, im not a muslim (i once was) im an athiest but i have enough knowledge about islam to challange your views, and prove you defaming muslims by marking yourself as a muslim, speaking for rest of the MUSLIM population when you post about your messiah (second comming)who does not exist.

the second comming is clearly described in the quran, with the comming of dajjal (one eyed humanoid) and imam mahdi, and jesus himself.

[Yusuf Mirza]

Islam has many denominations. Ahmadiyyat are those Muslims who believe that the promised Mahdi and Messiah of the latter days has already come upon this earth. Most Muslims believe it will be two persons a Mahdi and Jesus son of Mary who is alive in heaven. We believe that as according to the Holy Qur’an Jesus died a natural and noble death like all Prophets of Allah and that another shall come in the latter days who will be called Jesus because of the similarities that are bound to be between them in personality, mission and in their lives. Actually this if the major difference between us and other Muslims. Also we are most peaceful and meek Muslims.

[Yusuf Mirza]

Originally Posted by imported_guy

you just contradicted yourself there. you reference an alim, who proves jesus died on the cross, and then you come around and say you believe he didnt die on the cross


make up your mind, im not a muslim (i once was) im an athiest but i have enough knowledge about islam to challange your views, and prove you defaming muslims by marking yourself as a muslim, speaking for rest of the MUSLIM population when you post about your messiah (second comming)who does not exist.

the second comming is clearly described in the quran, with the comming of dajjal (one eyed humanoid) and imam mahdi, and jesus himself.

Brother you may be visually farsighted. The Fatwa from al-Azar said that there is no authority in the Quran to satisfy the hearth upon the belief that Jesus ascended up to heaven. I agree. The evidence is that he survived the crucifixion and then fulfilled his lifespan before dying a natural death. Wow no contradiction. You’re not a speed reader are you brother. Don’t worry no one is perfect.


You are an atheist well ,well I say that if you really had knowledge of Islam you would still be a believer isn’t it. You can certainly challenge my views that is your god given right. You are welcome my dear brother. As for challenging them successfully? A for effort.


Please, please bother show me anywhere in the Qur’an where there is mentioned a one eyed humanoid. Now I’m interested. You are the rationalist are you? Don’t you know the word Dajjal means many things in Arabic and not one is “humanoid with a one eye”. Dajjal means; liar, liars, powerful nation, the fire of war, peoples who control fire, advanced technological race, deceiving people etc – Lexicon of Lane.


Salim said, "'Abdullah Ibn 'Omar said, The Prophet stood up to address the people. He praised Allah as He deserved to be praised, then he spoke about the Dajjal: 'I warn you against him; there is no Prophet who has not warned his people against him, even Noah warned his people against him. But I will tell you something which no other Prophet has told his people. You must know that the Dajjal is one-eyed, and Allah is not one-eyed.'"

Hadhrat Huzaifah (R.A.) says, Dajjal will be blind in his left eye. He will have very thick hair on his body and he will also have his own type of Jannat (Heaven) and Jahannam (Hell) with him: Although his Jannat will appear as Jannat, in reality it will be Jahannam and likewise though his Jahannam will appear to be Jahannam, in reality it will be Jannat.
(Hadith: Muslim)

This is allegory. This Hadit is clear that it is referring to that people or nation that will be blind in one eye. Their right “spiritual” eye will be small like a grape and there left “worldly” eye shall be large. This means there will come a time when those who are atheistic, materialistic, wholly ignorant of spiritual truth and verities shall come to dominate the world. They will conspire against Islam and create that system that is taking people away from the worship of Allah Almighty.


But Allah will send the Messih and Mahdi to set that counter system that will separate the people into two camps. Not physically but spiritually. This means the Messiah shall come at the beginning of this age and not at the end. The Quran make specific mention to both the identity of the Dajjal people as well as their end with this surah;


The day when the trumpet will be blown. And on that day We shall gather the sinful together, blue-eyed.TaHa Chapter 20 : Verse 103


Blue eyed? These are the Western Nations. Look at Arabia where the Dajjal is surrounding Mukkah. Troops in Yemen, Iraq, Saudi, Jordan, Israel, Kuwait and UAE. Dajjal is there making people think that immorality is good and morals are dumb and boring. Muslims are calling each other non Muslim (like you called me) and turning away from religion (like you) and becoming lost in materialism.


How very medieval of you that you have this interpretation. No wonder you became a disbeliever. And here you are calling me non Muslim and you yourself are a by your own admission a Kafir.

How extremely ironic.