[Diogenes]

Originally Posted by Mahatma coat

I'm always drawn back to the old statistic

Executions in Texas under the Bush administration
..............................V.....................................
Executions in Afghanistan under the Talliban


my point is,thats their way of life and culture, what makes us so feckin special that we can waltz in and say, stop, we dont like what you are doing, you must do it our way from now on.

I think a statistic is meaningless unless you put in context.

Reasons people were executed in Texas
...........................V..........................
Reasons people were executed the Taliban

I'm fairly certain Bush never executed a woman for committing adultery. Or Stoned a woman to death for adultery after she was raped.

You FAIL,

you Fail at grasping my point.

you cannot hold the Taliban to your set of rules anymore than they can impose their rules outside of Their territories and on you.

you wouldnt like it if they came down the street in the mornin and started tellin you what to do, well they dont like it either.


FREEDOM is about being free to do whatever, not what someone else says is OK

Mahatma this is the universal declaration of human rights as adopted by the UN, while yes I can see that the Bush administration has breached many of these, the Taliban have breached far more.

Money ? --- From The Saudis

OLD Soviet Weapons ? yeah like the Talliban didnt buy a ****load of guns off the Americans when they were still friendly to them.

Do you see many M16's in video's of the Taliban?

FREEDOM is about being free to do whatever, not what someone else says is OK

You mean like the freedom to drink alcohol, go to school, work, travel by yourself, fly kites, listen to music, practice different religions, oh no wait the Taliban proscribed all of the above on pain of death.

Really didn't think this one through did you Mahatma?

[Nick_oliveri]

Originally Posted by Diogenes

Mahatma this is the universal declaration of human rights as adopted by the UN, while yes I can see that the Bush administration has breached many of these, the Taliban have breached far more.

Ok, im going to Guantanamo this thread up!

On 10 June 2006, three detainees were found dead, who, according to the Pentagon, "killed themselves in an apparent suicide act".Prison commander Rear Admiral Harry Harris claimed this was not an act of desperation, despite prisoners' pleas to the contrary, but rather "an act of asymmetric warfare committed against us"

On 19 May 2002, a U.N. panel said that holding detainees indefinitely at Guantánamo violated the world's ban on torture and that the United States should close the detention center

The UN doing its job there, a joke.
Detention centres that hold innocent prisoners and "collateral damage" of the two "wars" breed hatred, religious and non religious insurguncy and we will see more and more. This is indefinate, and as soon as Barrack comes in with his new policies hes going to realize that he'll have to do a lot more to quell these manufactured "terrorists".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdallah_Salih_al-Ajmi

As of August 2003, at least 29 inmates of Camp Delta had attempted suicide in protest. The U.S. officials would not say why they had not previously reported the incident. After this event the Pentagon reclassified suicides as "manipulative self-injurious behaviors" because it is alleged by camp physicians that detainees do not genuinely wish to end their lives

Supporters of the detention argue that trial review of detentions has never been afforded to prisoners of war, and that it is reasonable for enemy combatants to be detained until the cessation of hostilities.

"Indefinately" is what they are saying there. War on Drugs/War on Terror.

One of the justifications offered for the continued detention of Mesut Sen, during his Administrative Review Board hearing, was:
"Emerging as a leader, the detainee has been leading the detainees around him in prayer. The detainees listen to him speak and follow his actions during prayer."

Originally Posted by Diogenes

You mean like the freedom to drink alcohol, go to school, work, travel by yourself, fly kites, listen to music, practice different religions, oh no wait the Taliban proscribed all of the above on pain of death.

There is not much difference, both have broken international law and have murdered, detained and tortured inncocent people for a grudge. Not all GITMO detainees are inncocent mind you. But in a climate of lies how are to know whos telling the thruth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantan...detention_camp

[Diogenes]

Originally Posted by Nick_oliveri

Ok, im going to Guantanamo this thread up!



The UN doing its job there, a joke.
Detention centres that hold innocent prisoners and "collateral damage" of the two "wars" breed hatred, religious and non religious insurguncy and we will see more and more. This is indefinate, and as soon as Barrack comes in with his new policies hes going to realize that he'll have to do a lot more to quell these manufactured "terrorists".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdallah_Salih_al-Ajmi




"Indefinately" is what they are saying there. War on Drugs/War on Terror.



There is not much difference, both have broken international law and have murdered, detained and tortured inncocent people for a grudge. Not all GITMO detainees are inncocent mind you. But in a climate of lies how are to know whos telling the thruth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantan...detention_camp

If you're trying to get me to get into a defence of Guantanamo Bay, you're not going to get it Nick. This forum is littered with my condemnation of the Bush regime. However if you'll notice that the current president elect has pledged to close Guantanamo. While the taliban are still mutilating sschoolgirls

Look the Bush regime is a morally reprehensible collection of Neo Cons, but they have been replaced by a democratically elected government. Do you think the Taliban would abide by an election result? (hint they haven't) Do you think the neo cons are going to engage in a campaign of terrorism now they aren't in power?

Nick come on, theres no comparisons. Comparing the USG's behaviour, no matter how reprehensible, with the Taliban one of the most brutal tyrannical, misogynistic, violent regimes in the world, is just ass backward stupid.

[Nick_oliveri]

Not really, Barack and his Administration can close what they want. The damage is done. I do not want you to defend anything. The question i posed was whos breeding them. Jihad is just one of the options that they can turn to when they have been tortured, detained or have their families killed etc. There is also insurgency and other options. The hatred is extended and multiplied.

Really it can just get worse. Excuse my grammar and spelling.

[King Mob]

Originally Posted by Nick_oliveri

Not really, Barack and his Administration can close what they want. The damage is done. I do not want you to defend anything. The question i posed was whos breeding them. Jihad is just one of the options that they can turn to when they have been tortured, detained or have their families killed etc. There is also insurgency and other options. The hatred is extended and multiplied.

Really it can just get worse. Excuse my grammar and spelling.

You are aware that the Taliban have been abusing human rights long before America invaded right?

[Diogenes]

Originally Posted by Nick_oliveri

Not really, Barack and his Administration can close what they want. The damage is done.

And now the damage isn't ? it's going to be undone. Thatcher did horrendous things to irish republicans Blair managed to heal these wounds.

I do not want you to defend anything. The question i posed was whos breeding them. Jihad is just one of the options that they can turn to when they have been tortured, detained or have their families killed etc. There is also insurgency and other options.

And what about those taliban who weren't detained punished or had their families killed. I mean the Taliban were in existence before the US arrived, and fought the soviets in the 80s, and continued existing throughout the 90s when no one was attacking them.

Never let logic, reality or the facts on the ground alter your worldview nick.

The hatred is extended and multiplied.

yes. yes it is. But blaming one side for this cycle is narrow minded.

Really it can just get worse. Excuse my grammar and spelling.

Yes it can, can you imagine what would happen to the women who took positions of power once the taliban got back in power?

[Mahatma coat]

OK if you thinks its ok to oust the Talliban from power and install yer own puppet regieme, then you are obliged to invade China, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Zimbabewe......... basicly all the places that are screwed up acording to this enlightened world view, you cant just pick and choose the soft targets.

[Nick_oliveri]

Originally Posted by Diogenes

And now the damage isn't ? it's going to be undone. Thatcher did horrendous things to irish republicans Blair managed to heal these wounds.

How do you propose to undo the damage dealt to innocent people who were caged up and tortured even minutley for years?

Or apologise to the people who lost children, parents etc? Is there a list of the people that collaterral damage affected? What to do? Send a letter of condolance?

I know i HAARP on about these two things but they are not to be ignored and they are a real manufactured threat that (IMO) are not realistically fixable. (even by Obama....)

And what about those taliban who weren't detained punished or had their families killed. I mean the Taliban were in existence before the US arrived, and fought the soviets in the 80s, and continued existing throughout the 90s when no one was attacking them.

They matter too. Its the new generation or coming one that will matter more.
Theres being upset at the GWB administration which im sure we can all proudly admit to, and theres also a general hatred towards western peoples and western influence and ways.

Never let logic, reality or the facts on the ground alter your worldview nick.

It is logical that if you cage a man up or **** up his family that he (or some will) want revenge. People ignore this. And the existing insurgents will get more recruits or easily manipulate them.

yes. yes it is. But blaming one side for this cycle is narrow minded.

I can see how you would have assumed i was blaming one side. I am not.

Yes it can, can you imagine what would happen to the women who took positions of power once the taliban got back in power?

They probably wouldn't last long. Hell look at Benazir Bhutto.

The only hadith relating to female political leadership is Sahih Bukhari 5:59:709, in which Muhammad is recorded as saying that people with a female ruler will never be successful

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam
Lawd, im goin Wiki crazy these days.

Edit: i just had to laugh at this one:

The status of women's testimony in Islam is disputed. Some jurists have held that certain types of testimony by women will not be accepted. In other cases, the testimony of two women can equal that of one man ( although Quran says 2 women and 2 male are needed but if a male cannot find another male he may carry this testimony out himself

[Nick_oliveri]

Originally Posted by King Mob

You are aware that the Taliban have been abusing human rights long before America invaded right?

The same could be said about other Islamic nations. See my last wiki link above.

[King Mob]

Originally Posted by Mahatma coat

OK if you thinks its ok to oust the Talliban from power and install yer own puppet regieme, then you are obliged to invade China, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Zimbabewe......... basicly all the places that are screwed up acording to this enlightened world view, you cant just pick and choose the soft targets.

No one is saying that ousting the Taliban was the best thing to do. Only that it happened.
What we're saying is that it is disingenuous to call such an oppressive regime like the Taliban patriotic or to call them freedom fighters.

But tell me aren't Zimbabwe, Saudi Arabia, North Korea and China all abusing human rights badly? Or is it ok be cause it's their culture.

[King Mob]

Originally Posted by Nick_oliveri

The same could be said about other Islamic nations. See my last wiki link above.

Yes it can. Whats your point?

[Nick_oliveri]

What? I answered your question. Its obvious that im drawing comparisions between sexist regimes.

I thought we were talking about sexism. Shiit i must be in the wrong thread.

[Mahatma coat]

Originally Posted by King Mob

No one is saying that ousting the Taliban was the best thing to do. Only that it happened.
What we're saying is that it is disingenuous to call such an oppressive regime like the Taliban patriotic or to call them freedom fighters.

why not, they are fighting an invading force for the right to be free to run their country the way they want, we might not agree with how they do it, but what gives us the right?

But tell me aren't Zimbabwe, Saudi Arabia, North Korea and China all abusing human rights badly? Or is it ok be cause it's their culture.

hear that sound, thats the point whooshing over your head, look quick, oh no you missed it again

[Diogenes]

Originally Posted by Nick_oliveri

What? I answered your question. Its obvious that im drawing comparisions between sexist regimes.

I thought we were talking about sexism. Shiit i must be in the wrong thread.

bangs head against wall.....

We're not talking about sexism Nick, the issue is whether the Taliban are a bunch of patriotic freedom fighters, or fanatical religious fundamentalists, it got dragged off tangent by people saying "well the bushes are just as bad" and other inane tangents.

OK if you thinks its ok to oust the Talliban from power and install yer own puppet regieme, then you are obliged to invade China, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Zimbabewe......... basicly all the places that are screwed up acording to this enlightened world view, you cant just pick and choose the soft targets.

Mahatma I know this is a troubling and difficult concept for you to grasp but here goes. Mahatma the world is an imperfect place. Suggesting America has to basically start world war 3 if they go after the Taliban is insane. No one would win, there is neither the manpower, the will, or the resources to do the above and it would make the world a worse place.

Getting rid of the Taliban and Saddam, are the two sorry wins we can take out of the last 7 years. I'm hoping that with the change in the administration, the mistake that was made diverting troops and resources out of Afghanistan too soon, will be reversed.

[Mahatma coat]

so bombing Afghanistan into the stoneage and destabalizing Iraq creating one of the biggest clusterfukcs in history are WINS!!!!!