[BluntGuy]

Somebody made a good point about the German autobahn system.

I think that is the system we're going for in Ireland, and in my opinion it's a good idea.

The majority of German autobhans are simple D2M, just like all of our inter-urbans. But because of the variety and choice, they don't get blocked up.

In the UK, they have fewer but wider motorways. It's cheaper, but it creates congestion. Parts of the M1 have been upgraded to five-lane segments, which is ridiculous and suggests that an alternative route is needed for some traffic.

With our system, we probably will never end up with that problem.

Also, if further proof is needed that a wide network of D2Ms is appropiate, just look at the American inter-states. Most of them are D2M as well.

[BluntGuy]

An interesting post was made on SABRE...

This scheme is being advanced more seriously than I thought- Friends of Mine living in a beautiful House and Grounds along the existing N20 near Cork have been served with a Compulsory Purchase order. They must be out by 2010. They are going along with other people. My Friends told me it is the Farmers they are having trouble with. They have spent a huge amount of Money on the House and grounds and are now old. As much as I like seeing the road being built I think there was no reason for an online upgrade from Cork - Rathduff. They will move next spring/summer. I hope the house is not left idle for vandals etc. until work starts.

I'm not sure whether I believe this or not, since they don't even have the motorway order published yet. Perhaps the CPO is for something else. But if it does happen to do with the M20 scheme then perhaps progress is being made slightly quicker than we suspected.

[KevR]

I would say definitely yes!

We need a continous safe and reliable road link between or 2nd, 3rd and 4th cities (Cork, Galway and Limerick). Work has started on the Crusheen-Gort section of the N18 so that will only leave one more section of the N18 for Galway to have a continous good road connection to Limerick.

I live in Galway and I'm sorry to say but I consider Cork (or anywhere South of Limerick) to be pretty much cut off from me. I haven't been to Cork in over 12 years and that's solely because of the current road (especially South of Limerick). Too much hassle, takes too long and it's not at all a nice driving experience.
Galway-Cork is approximately the same distance as Galway-Dublin yet it could take not far off twice as long to get to Cork as it would Dublin (this is before the M6 is even fully finished!). This simply should not be the case. Not to mention there's probably more of a chance of being in an accident driving to Cork from Galway than driving to Dublin.

I wouldn't mind but I really like Cork.

NRA - Get the M20 built! The sooner the better!

[BluntGuy]

I can confirm that the post above is related to the M20 online widening near Rathduff... they want the people out of the house by 2010.

Looks like the M20 is moving along pretty swiftly despite the current economic climate. It'll be a shame when it hits a brick wall when the government suddenly has to decide how to fund it.

[Amtmann]

The putative M20 has been taking quite a bashing over on indymedia: http://www.indymedia.ie/article/88845

[BluntGuy]

Originally Posted by Furet

The putative M20 has been taking quite a bashing over on indymedia: http://www.indymedia.ie/article/88845

The man suggest the N20 is upgraded and coach services are run on it...

Fair enough...

But how do you upgrade a road that is narrow in many parts, has tonnes of accesses onto it and has very little room for expansion...

How much does that cost?

[BluntGuy]

Btw, I just had pleasure of reading the latest lame T21 newsletter...

http://www.transport21.ie/Publicatio...ter_Nov_08.pdf

I was expecting there be a schedule of works for the coming years to take into account the current budget crisis, but no it simply re-iterates what we've heard a thousand times before and pats the government on the back for things opened years ago.

[corktina]

Originally Posted by BluntGuy

The man suggest the N20 is upgraded and coach services are run on it...

Fair enough...

But how do you upgrade a road that is narrow in many parts, has tonnes of accesses onto it and has very little room for expansion...

How much does that cost?

its pretty strightforward to upgrade Blarney to Rathduff as there is spare land and some bridges already exist and crucially the old N20 still runs paralell. There are issues with access points which would need to be addressed if the road is to be motorway spec but these are reasonably minmal.North of the railway bridge at rathduff I think a new line is the preferred (and necessary) option.

[Chris_533976]

That article is true. We do need a direct rail link, but we have a high quality coach service already. (Lets face it, BEs Cork to Galway service is hourly).

But we need the M20 AS WELL. Why should we have to have either an M20 OR a good rail service? Why cant we have both? And yes, the absolute farce that is Limerick Junction should be adressed ASAP.

[Lennoxschips]

Somebody made a good point about the German autobahn system.

I think that is the system we're going for in Ireland, and in my opinion it's a good idea.

The majority of German autobhans are simple D2M, just like all of our inter-urbans. But because of the variety and choice, they don't get blocked up.

I speak very little German, but I know the German word for traffic jam, stau. The autobahn is notorious for mega-jams.

In the past 20 years the Germans have been pursuing more sustainable transport options. Most of their motorway system was built between the 1950s and 1980s. In the 21st century, they've gone for a completely different transport approach involving ICE-trains, maglev, guided busways, light rail, u-bahns, etc.

Of course, Ireland refuses to learn from 50 years of European and American mistakes and has stubbornly pursued developer and car-led planning. We had a blank slate and loads of cash, we had the chance in the 1990s to become the role model country for the 21st century. Instead we implemented transport plans drawn up in the 1960s and 1970s.

When Indymedia says this, they are completely on the ball: "And far from being modern and progressive, motorways were in reality old-fashioned and negative infrastructure from the 1960s, generating CO2 emissions that accelerated climate change, increasing rather than reducing traffic, reinforcing oil dependency, and being profoundly uneconomic due to their huge secondary costs."

[John J]

In the 21st century, they've gone for a completely different transport approach involving ICE-trains, maglev, guided busways, light rail, u-bahns, etc.

Of course, Ireland refuses to learn from 50 years of European and American mistakes and has stubbornly pursued developer and car-led planning.

Any idea why that may be? Let me give you a clue.

www.citypopulation.de

Germany - city population (greater urban area) - top 5
Berlin 3,416K
Hamburg 1,771K
Munchen 1,312K
Koln 995K
Frankfurt 659K

Ireland - city population (greater urban area) - top 5
Dublin 506K
Cork 119K
Galway 72K
Tallaght 64K
Blanchardstown 63K

ICE and Maglev in Ireland - it's only a matter of time - well maybe if I hug some trees and smoke the good stuff

[bk]

Lennoxschips, I partly agree with you.

We should be building much better public infrastructure, like ICE, etc.

However not at the expense of the road building projects. Most of the best countries environmentally have excellent road infrastructure, that is because they would rather have cars cruising along a motorway, then stuck in grid lock spewing out fumes.

We needed the MIU's to improve safety, reduce pollution and to improve our economy (fast and safer transport of goods).

However I agree with you that we should have built a whole new ICE type rail infrastructure at the same time as the roads. We should have built new ICE rail tracks beside (or in the centre of) each of the new motorways, just like they did in Israel.

[KevR]

Originally Posted by Chris_533976

That article is true. We do need a direct rail link, but we have a high quality coach service already. (Lets face it, BEs Cork to Galway service is hourly).

But we need the M20 AS WELL. Why should we have to have either an M20 OR a good rail service? Why cant we have both? And yes, the absolute farce that is Limerick Junction should be adressed ASAP.

I don't think we necessarily have to choose or can't have both. We can't have both built at the same time, the money just isn't there.

But if they build the M20, it's a long term investment. There probably won't be a need for any significant investment in the road link between Cork and Limerick for a very very very long time afterwards. So a few years down the line after the M20 has been built, there's no reason why funding couldn't be found for a direct rail link between Cork and Limerick in my opinion.

We definitely aren't going to get both immediately, it needs to be decided which project should get priority and which should wait a few years.

I think the M20 should be given priority. It will encourage more investment in Cork and Limerick than a rail connection would, it would save lives and our 2nd, 3rd and 4th cities would be connected by a quality road network. The M20 would also greatly enhance coach journeys between Galway/Limerick and Cork in that they would be faster, more reliable and a more comfortable journey - this extra appeal would increase numbers using such services.

[BluntGuy]

Originally Posted by corktina

its pretty strightforward to upgrade Blarney to Rathduff as there is spare land and some bridges already exist and crucially the old N20 still runs paralell. There are issues with access points which would need to be addressed if the road is to be motorway spec but these are reasonably minmal.North of the railway bridge at rathduff I think a new line is the preferred (and necessary) option.

The access points issue is already being addressed. Several landowners on the route, I can now confirm, have been told to be out of their houses by 2010. (I don't mean the CPO has been published yet, but the landowners have already been told exactly what is going to be happening to their properties).

Theoretically, the M20 could begin construction in 2010, but like I said, despite how rapidly it's moving now, when it hits the brick wall called "funding", I'm bracing myself for it to slow down big time.

Originally Posted by Lennoxschips

In the past 20 years the Germans have been pursuing more sustainable transport options. Most of their motorway system was built between the 1950s and 1980s. In the 21st century, they've gone for a completely different transport approach involving ICE-trains, maglev, guided busways, light rail, u-bahns, etc.

That is the only problem with your point...

Had Germany been in the same situation we were in now, I can garuntee that they would be rolling out road infrastructure projects quicker than ICE, maglev etc.

Germany are in a position to be going for high-tech, new public transport solutions because they have a decent road-network already constructed, as do most of the other wealthy European countries.

Once we have our road infrastructure completed, then yes, we should put the majority of emphasis on good public transport, particularly in Dublin, which is a disgrace by anyone's standards. But until then, yes, we do need to invest heavily in roads. The need for private transport is not going to go away anytime soon. While I encourage a switch to public transport, we should also be trying to make private transport a viable long-term alternative as well, using cleaner, more environmentally-friendly fuels and production methods. Because let's face it: you can't have public transport EVERYWHERE in the country. People will still need cars (or whatever they may be using in the next 100 years) to get around.

We need a balance. To get as many people as possible using reliable, high-speed public transport (including coaches), and to have the others driving environmentally substainable vehicles. The latter, of course, requiring, good road infrastructure.

Originally Posted by Chris_533976

That article is true. We do need a direct rail link, but we have a high quality coach service already. (Lets face it, BEs Cork to Galway service is hourly).

A high-quality coach service that can only reach its potential with high-speed roads.

Originally Posted by KevR

But if they build the M20, it's a long term investment. There probably won't be a need for any significant investment in the road link between Cork and Limerick for a very very very long time afterwards.

That's true. Until of course we hit our Achilles' heel...

Junction Design.

And if you've seen the current plans for the M20/M22 junction, you'll know exactly what I mean.

[D.L.R.]

Originally Posted by BluntGuy

And if you've seen the current plans for the M20/M22 junction, you'll know exactly what I mean.

I haven't and do you have a link? Totally agree the standard at major junctions is poor.