[Amtmann]

Originally Posted by icdg

The problem is that some people have taken to calling roads like the Ennis Bypass and Gorey Bypass HQDCs too. They aren't. They're standard dual carriageways which happen to be fully grade seperated. These roads are only built with 100 km/h design speeds and can have LILO junctions too as well as GSJs.

Out of curiosity, what is the design difference between a HQDC/motorway on the one hand and a standard dual carriageway like the Cashel Bypass on the other?

The Ennis Bypass certainly looks like it could have been designed for a speed of 120kph.

[jd]

Originally Posted by icdg

The problem is that some people have taken to calling roads like the Ennis Bypass and Gorey Bypass HQDCs too. They aren't. They're standard dual carriageways which happen to be fully grade seperated. These roads are only built with 100 km/h design speeds and can have LILO junctions too as well as GSJs.

Couldn't the Gorey by-pass be designated a motorway with a 100 km/hr speed limit? Basically to stop direct access to the road ( through some dodgy granting of planning permission in the future (you'd have to get rid of the rest areas etc))

[BluntGuy]

Originally Posted by icdg

The problem is that some people have taken to calling roads like the Ennis Bypass and Gorey Bypass HQDCs too. They aren't. They're standard dual carriageways which happen to be fully grade seperated. These roads are only built with 100 km/h design speeds and can have LILO junctions too as well as GSJs.

Well I'm hoping they get re-designated before some people start to have 'ideas' about putting direct accesses onto them.

[murphaph]

Originally Posted by Furet

Out of curiosity, what is the design difference between a HQDC/motorway on the one hand and a standard dual carriageway like the Cashel Bypass on the other?

Sightlines (vertical and horizontal!) mostly. The geometry of the motorway is such that you can see further along the road, therefore can travel faster while still being able to stop in the distance which you can see to be clear.

Exits on motorways (and HQDCs-they are the same apart from the lines, signage and emergency phones) are typically designed for higher speeds, ie, they allow you to leave the main carriageway at full design speed (120) and decellerate on the off-slip itself, whereas a standard dual carriageway with grade separated exits may require a certain amount of the decelerating to be done on the mainline-evident on some of the exits on the upgraded N7 from Rathcoole to Naas for example).

[D.L.R.]

that bloody N7! will it ever be motorway

[darkman2]

The M20. Is it nessacary?

Yes but the world is ending on Wednesday anyway - so it wont cost us anything.


Next!

[Cool Mo D]

If you ever drive the Ennis bypass, keep an eye out for some of the slip roads - they are incredibly tight, so have to be taken at low (max 50kph -ish), with very short distances to get up to speed. This is why it's not a HQDC. This isn't so much the case on the N85 junction, but is on the Barefield and Tulla road exits.
Once your on the road though, it does feel like a proper motorway.

[Gonzo]

20 years ago we had barely 20km of motorways and cow-path roads linking all our towns, now we have motorways been built everywhere with tolls etc! The M20, M3, M17, M18, M9 and M6 are great upgrades and all but considering our small populations in our towns and low traffic volumes compared to European/uk towns/destinations, these motorway building schems are slightly over the top. The N3, N9 and N20 needed major upgrades in sections but dual carriageways would have been grand imo and could have saved us some money instead which could have been put into proper public transport.

[Lennoxschips]

Originally Posted by BluntGuy

Agreed.

In most other developed countries, the second and third cities have a good motorway link

Yes, and they also have an efficiently laid out motorway system that combines as many routes as possible.

Ireland is following a plan of motorways from everywhere to everywhere.

Let me put it this way, if Ireland had built it's motorways efficiently, then the Limerick-Cork route would already have been done.

[Lennoxschips]

If you ever drive the Ennis bypass, keep an eye out for some of the slip roads - they are incredibly tight, so have to be taken at low (max 50kph -ish), with very short distances to get up to speed. This is why it's not a HQDC.

Most of the German autobahns are like that, they have no problems classifying them as motorway, let alone HQDC.

[murphaph]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

20 years ago we had barely 20km of motorways and cow-path roads linking all our towns, now we have motorways been built everywhere with tolls etc! The M20, M3, M17, M18, M9 and M6 are great upgrades and all but considering our small populations in our towns and low traffic volumes compared to European/uk towns/destinations, these motorway building schems are slightly over the top. The N3, N9 and N20 needed major upgrades in sections but dual carriageways would have been grand imo and could have saved us some money instead which could have been put into proper public transport.

...however, unlike our british and continental cousins, we spent almost nothing on piecemeal upgrades of existing routes. Put it another way-the UK (etc.) turned to motorways after they'd upgraded much of their trunk network with bypasses, widenings and realignments. We did very little in cmparison so have in effect skipped a stage and gone straight to motorways for routes that in the UK would have been upgraded to an acceptable standard by now. So we have a choice-upgrade such routes piecemeal or go further and build new parallel offline routes (motorways primarily). Ireland is also a bit different in that we allowed masses of ribbon development along national routes to the extent that widenings become prohibitively expensive and new-build is cheaper sometimes (just land cost-little or no demolition of dewellings and little or no traffic disruption durig build).

[MYOB]

Originally Posted by D.L.R.

that bloody N7! will it ever be motorway

Not while theres 5 petrol stations, two pubs, a few quarries, private houses, farms, numerous LILO junctions, a rather interesting case of twin LILOs with a bridge joining them, and so on along it... And thats only Newlands to the ball!

[murphaph]

Originally Posted by Lennoxschips

Yes, and they also have an efficiently laid out motorway system that combines as many routes as possible.

Ireland is following a plan of motorways from everywhere to everywhere.

Let me put it this way, if Ireland had built it's motorways efficiently, then the Limerick-Cork route would already have been done.

The UK uses a trunk and branch approach like that with just 2 main routes north (M1 and M6) and consequently both motorways are choked and require constant widening but the biggest problem of this model is that a small incident can close half the north-south capacity in an instant. The Germans have a better idea with their planned grid which provides multiple routes for the same journey and consequently much (vast majority in fact) of the german network is D2M (2 lanes each side, unlike the UK where this is the exception rather than the rule).

In time there will be four viable routes from Cork to Dublin-M20-M7/M8-M7/M25-M9-M7/M25-N30-M11. This provides redundancy in case of incidents.

[MYOB]

Originally Posted by Lennoxschips

Most of the German autobahns are like that, they have no problems classifying them as motorway, let alone HQDC.

They're also markedly better drivers than we are, to be honest. Put that standard of road as motorway in a country with Irish or worse (Slovak!!) standard of driving and there'd be high speed rear endings on motorway slips every day. I've even been rear-ended on a motorway slip as it is here!

[Calina]

Originally Posted by BluntGuy

The new M20 motorway inbetween Cork and Limerick. I've heard that there are many people that feel it's rather unnecessary considering the traffic volume.

I personally believe if they're going to upgrade the N20 route, they may as well use the safest long-term solution, which of course is a direct motorway link. But what do you all think?

I am of the opinion that motorway is called for at this stage. It is criminal that the route has been allowed to linger in the mess that it is in.

Originally Posted by BluntGuy

I agree, the N20 is in a deplorable state and even if a motorway was to built parallel, it would still need to be sorted out in some sections.

Agreed. Unfortunately the policy in Ireland appears to be do as little as possible, wait until your back is to a wall and there are two guns to your head before doing something about a comparatively easily rectifiable problem. Road surface is an example, road straightening less so. Elements of the N20 as it exists however scare me.

Originally Posted by Furet

Any professional planner or Green will say "No". In fairness, public transport should be the priority.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't build an M20 too. I think we should. Well actually, I don't.

Let me clarify: I think there definitely ought to be a motorway between Cork and Limerick. Ideally I'd have this as an off-shoot of the M8 close to Mitchelstown. Geographically it's a shorter distance, but there are mountains in the way. In any case, that particular preference is not going to happen, not least because it would kill the Atlantic Corridor idea. The M20, if built, will shadow the N20.

Public transport from Cork to Limerick is problematic. The rail route is via Limerick Junction currently and is not a fast or efficient way to move people or goods. The alternative being a bus system, the road has to be upgraded. Or you could straighten the rail route which although I am generally in favour of, I am not convinced that in this case, given that the road connection even in its current state is more efficient, is the more cost effective approach. Put simply, rail from Cork to Galway via Limerick will probably not offer much advantage over the existing road connections. For now.

I am not convinced that offshooting from the M8 is a practical idea because in any case, elements of the route are in such poor condition that that road would have to be widened or repaired anyway. Run a M20 and you will kill two birds with one stone. Plus, there is no point in wishing those hills away. It doesn't work like that.

I hope that a professional planner would not be blinded by ideology, whatever about a professional card carrying Green.

Originally Posted by DWCommuter

A HQDC yes. Don't see the need for a "motorway" in its purest form. The N25 needs a HQDC treatment aswell.

But it won't happen anyway as a few dodgey credit people in the US bombed out the subprime market and now Ireland Inc is ****ed. (oh and the governance in lil ould eire wasn't up to much either.)

offtopic/ this is a naive assessment of the situation. With respect to the fallout on Ireland Inc, it was caused by an overdependence on selling property to each other which was going to cause trouble even if the US credit market remained fine and dandy. If you want an honest assessment, the historically low interest rates were a bad idea and you can thank the Fed for that.

Utlimately I'm of the opinion that the route merits motorway treatment. It's an extremely busy route and unfortunately there are two bottlenecks on it and lots of small junctions. And I'm pretty sure there is at least one cattle crossing on it also. I'd like it to have motorway status if only to reduce direct access requirements on it.

Originally Posted by loyatemu

In terms of simply linking Cork and Limerick (they may be the 2nd and 3rd biggest in the Republic, but LMK in particular is little more than a large town in European terms) - the obvious route seems to be an extension of the M8 where it dog-legs at Mitchelstown. Not sure of the terrain - there seems to be a route between the Galtee and (googles) Ballyhoura mountains.

However, that depends on how much of the N20 traffic is actually going from Cork to Limerick - i'd imagine a lot is actually generated by the towns along the route.

A lot of N20 traffic in my experience is local towns to Cork and local towns to Limerick. It also carries a whole pile of traffic routing from Galway to Cork and vice versa. During the summer it takes a heavy amount of tourism traffic. It is also used occasionally as an alternative route from Dublin to Cork as the road from Dublin to Limerick is comparatively free absent a delay in Mountrath versus hold ups in Abbeyleix and Durrow and timewise can compare well to the N8 routing. I've done it myself.

Originally Posted by D.L.R.

We need the M20. If the traffic volumes don't justify it, then it should be built on the basis of regional development for the future. No point building anything less than motorway. Both cities will benefit enormously from it.

Forward planning. what a brilliant idea. Investing in the future. Fantastic.

Originally Posted by Gonzo

20 years ago we had barely 20km of motorways and cow-path roads linking all our towns, now we have motorways been built everywhere with tolls etc! The M20, M3, M17, M18, M9 and M6 are great upgrades and all but considering our small populations in our towns and low traffic volumes compared to European/uk towns/destinations, these motorway building schems are slightly over the top. The N3, N9 and N20 needed major upgrades in sections but dual carriageways would have been grand imo and could have saved us some money instead which could have been put into proper public transport.

I disagree. I appreciate the motorways, except the M50 of course, as they also allow me to use my time slightly more efficiently. In 7 years something like one hour is off my route to my parents place courtesy of not having to queue in Kildare, Monasterevin and Castletroy, plus a higher average speed long those roads.

We will not get proper public transport in this country for a long time because no one really knows what that involves. I also loathe this either/or approach which dictates either we build proper roads or we invest in proper public transport. I have spent too much of my time refereeing arguments on public transport here to go into in too much detail, but it is my view that the needs of the users are last to count. And - before this gets picked up on - not least by the various lobby organisations purporting to represent them.

Originally Posted by murphaph

....The Germans have a better idea with their planned grid which provides multiple routes for the same journey and consequently much (vast majority in fact) of the german network is D2M (2 lanes each side, unlike the UK where this is the exception rather than the rule).

In time there will be four viable routes from Cork to Dublin-M20-M7/M8-M7/M25-M9-M7/M25-N30-M11. This provides redundancy in case of incidents.

I like the way they've done it in France as well.

Originally Posted by MYOB

They're also markedly better drivers than we are, to be honest. Put that standard of road as motorway in a country with Irish or worse (Slovak!!) standard of driving and there'd be high speed rear endings on motorway slips every day. I've even been rear-ended on a motorway slip as it is here!

Necessity is the mother of adaptation. I think you'll find that our standard of driving might improve if we weren't collectively hopelessly infuriated by the substandard infrastructure all the time.