[eoin5]

Originally Posted by Hivemind187

But I would be locked up for shouting caustic warnings to sighted people about imaginary trains no?

See where I have a problem with this?

Youre bending the analogy a bit too much there. Even with that its not really what you could call malice.

Originally Posted by Hivemind187

I'm still not so sure. Consider that God is created by man and thus the worship of god is the wroship of the creator of god by proxy. The same is said for religion, that since it is created by man it is a reflection of his feelinlgs, ethics and morality - therefore it is a lie to say that religion says we are going to hell but it not the practitioners that threaten us.

All that religion does is provide a rather large, but single step of separation.

Its a thought experiment, it needs work.

This isnt true, youre just clumping belief and sentiment together again. What you genuinely believe will happen to someone and what you wish will happen them are not necessarily the same.

Also this 'by proxy' argument doesnt stand up at all for many reasons, firstly you cant prove that god doesnt exist (its the whole invisible and pink argument again, its been discussed to death), secondly even if you could prove god isnt there its only the people who created the religion that you can implicate from that (and yes those who maintain it are guilty of something, but its not necessarly malice), and thirdly the way youve written you seem to want to implicate all of mankind which doesnt really make sense.

The blame game is on a case by case basis.

[Zombrex]

Originally Posted by kelly1

I can't believe you're saying this. You're OK with being an automaton?

You are confusing having ones choice restricted with not having choice in the first place.

You might as well ask how can I be OK with not being able to fly, or not being able to breath under water. There is a difference between me not being able to fly and putting a bird that can fly, a cage.

If I was an automaton I wouldn't notice because I would not be aware of the ability I don't have, in the same way that I don't notice not being able to fly. In fact I very well may be an automaton, free will may in fact be simply an illusion, but I don't notice because I have nothing to compare it too..

So as I've asked before, why are you not outraged with God that your choice to fly like a bird is restricted?

[kelly1]

Originally Posted by Beruthiel

Can I ask, when it did 'occur' to you, what did you do next? Did you dig further or ignore the niggly questions?

You see I don't see a contradiction between science and religion (I'm not fundamentalist/creationist) or between physical and spiritual. I think the physical world is like an inner layer inside a spiritual outer layer and the spiritual is the higher reality. A bit like body and mind.

[Tim Robbins]

Originally Posted by kelly1

You see I don't see a contradiction between science and religion (I'm not fundamentalist/creationist) or between physical and spiritual. I think the physical world is like an inner layer inside a spiritual outer layer and the spiritual is the higher reality. A bit like body and mind.

Well even if I don't agree with you Noel, I think it's refreshing to see people who believe in God and their Religion to be accepting of Science. It's a pity American politicians couldn't do the same.

[kelly1]

Originally Posted by Wicknight

If I was an automaton I wouldn't notice because I would not be aware of the ability I don't have, in the same way that I don't notice not being able to fly. In fact I very well may be an automaton, free will may in fact be simply an illusion, but I don't notice because I have nothing to compare it too.

But do you not have an issue with the idea or possibility of being an automaton? Would you not be concerned if you did discover that we are in fact all automatons?

Originally Posted by Wicknight

So as I've asked before, why are you not outraged with God that your choice to fly like a bird is restricted?

I accept it as God's design. I'd like to be able to fly but I obviously can't. If it could somehow improve our spiritual well-being, I'm sure God would have made it so.

[OK-Cancel-Apply]

Originally Posted by kelly1

God does have a plan for us because He knows what's ultimately best for us. We can go along with this plan or reject it so our free will isn't violated.

How do you equate free-will with imperfection? Without free-will, were automatons, are we not?

I reject the idea that free-will is an imperfection so I can't really answer your question. He does know how we'll turn out but that does't mean that it's His will or that He caused us to sin.

But that's just it - he DID. If you contend that God is all-knowing and all powerful, how could it be any other way? Surely you'd accept that God knew, from the moment he first created the universe, exactly which way every hair on my head would fall, right?

Do you also claim that we are 'perfect' creations of God?

[Zombrex]

Originally Posted by kelly1

But do you not have an issue with the idea or possibility of being an automaton? Would you not be concerned if you did discover that we are in fact all automatons?

No more than I would have an issue with not being able to fly.

I am what I am at the end of the day. Being annoyed that I'm not something else seems rather peculiar way to look at life.

Originally Posted by kelly1

I accept it as God's design.

Thats fine Kelly1, but that is faith not reason.

You accept (blindly in my opinion) that what you are told is correct and makes sense, even if you don't understand it. You are free to do that, but it seems strange that others like myself not doing that would appear arrogant to you.

Originally Posted by kelly1

I'd like to be able to fly but I obviously can't.

Well thats the point. It doesn't bother you that you can't fly because you don't know what it would be like to be able to fly. If you could fly and someone restricted you from flying you would no doubt object.

Likewise if God had made us all in heaven we wouldn't mind, even if that required a different kind of human that didn't have the option to separate himself into hell, a type of human that loved God automatically in the same way a parent automatically loves their child.

So when you say that we need to be here on Earth because we need to have this choice to separate ourselves from God, its just nonsense Kelly.

We no more need that choice than we need the choice to fly.

It is simply a (very weak) excuse/explanation to try and reconcile the idea that God is supposed to love us all and want the best for us all and the fact that we are in this often cruel harsh world.

[Beruthiel]

Originally Posted by kelly1

You see I don't see a contradiction between science and religion (I'm not fundamentalist/creationist) or between physical and spiritual. I think the physical world is like an inner layer inside a spiritual outer layer and the spiritual is the higher reality. A bit like body and mind.

Yes, but what are you basing that assumption on?

[mossieh]

Originally Posted by Wicknight

No more than I would have an issue with not being able to fly.

I am what I am at the end of the day. Being annoyed that I'm not something else seems rather peculiar way to look at life.


Thats fine Kelly1, but that is faith not reason.

You accept (blindly in my opinion) that what you are told is correct and makes sense, even if you don't understand it. You are free to do that, but it seems strange that others like myself not doing that would appear arrogant to you.


Well thats the point. It doesn't bother you that you can't fly because you don't know what it would be like to be able to fly. If you could fly and someone restricted you from flying you would no doubt object.

Likewise if God had made us all in heaven we wouldn't mind, even if that required a different kind of human that didn't have the option to separate himself into hell, a type of human that loved God automatically in the same way a parent automatically loves their child.

So when you say that we need to be here on Earth because we need to have this choice to separate ourselves from God, its just nonsense Kelly.

We no more need that choice than we need the choice to fly.

It is simply a (very weak) excuse/explanation to try and reconcile the idea that God is supposed to love us all and want the best for us all and the fact that we are in this often cruel harsh world.

Great post.

[kelly1]

Originally Posted by OK-Cancel-Apply

But that's just it - he DID. If you contend that God is all-knowing and all powerful, how could it be any other way? Surely you'd accept that God knew, from the moment he first created the universe, exactly which way every hair on my head would fall, right?

I'm having a really hard time getting my points across Maybe I'm a bit linguistically challenged.

It may be your opinion that God causes us to sin just because He created us and my point on free-will isn't being accepted very enthusiastically. Just because God knows the future doesn't mean he planned it that way. God has a plan for all of us which ultimately is to live in union with Him. God knows when the next person is going to be killed in Ireland but it's not His will.

Originally Posted by OK-Cancel-Apply

Do you also claim that we are 'perfect' creations of God?

I'd say we are capable of perfection but it's a uphill struggle which can only be achieved with the help of God's grace. I believe Adam (i.e. the first human with an immortal soul) was created in a high state of perfection but he fell from grace through sin and brought the rest of the human race with him.

[bluewolf]

Originally Posted by kelly1

I'm having a really hard time getting my points across Maybe I'm a bit linguistically challenged.

It may be your opinion that God causes us to sin just because He created us and my point on free-will isn't being accepted very enthusiastically. Just because God knows the future doesn't mean he planned it that way. God has a plan for all of us which ultimately is to live in union with Him. God knows when the next person is going to be killed in Ireland but it's not His will.

If god is responsible for having designed every nuance of the human body, designed every atom so that some react in certain ways, with full foreknowledge of the implications, then yes, it is god's will.
Unless perhaps emotions aren't chemicals in the body?

[Zombrex]

Originally Posted by kelly1

I'd say we are capable of perfection but it's a uphill struggle which can only be achieved with the help of God's grace.

Why?

As in why is it like this?

Who decided that reality would be like this, who decided that the nature of a human would be to drift towards sin if we didn't have God's grace covering us. And why is God's grace not just all over us all the time?

Originally Posted by kelly1

I believe Adam (i.e. the first human with an immortal soul) was created in a high state of perfection but he fell from grace through sin and brought the rest of the human race with him.

Please explain how Adam "brought the rest of the human race with him"

I had no idea that Adam had the power to alter how humans were created. Was Adam a god?

[CerebralCortex]

Originally Posted by kelly1

....Just because God knows the future doesn't mean he planned it that way. God has a plan for all of us which ultimately is to live in union with Him. God knows when the next person is going to be killed in Ireland but it's not His will.....

Right there! Round the circle again. If he can't control the future hes not a omnipotent/omnipresent/omniX he's not a god by your definition just a very powerful being. You make Thor sound more powerful than this guy.
I'm a powerful being all round compared to a lion due to my gray matter but a lion could still kick my ass!

[pH]

Here's my major problem with being saved, the Christian God, theology and heaven.

Can you sin in heaven? Do you have free will in heaven?

Most Christians admit that even those that manage to be saved do so 'by the skin of their teeth' so to speak. We're all wretched sinners, but if we try hard enough we can be saved through his love and forgiveness etc etc.

So once you get to heaven you either:
a) have to keep trying not to sin (ie you have free will, you can sin in heaven and you must constantly keep choosing not to)
b) have free will but cannot sin (ie you're free to choose any actions, just there are no actions in heaven that result in a sin)
c) have no free will (ie once in heave you can no longer choose anything for yourself)

Christians are very fond of the concept of souls, and talk about life in heaven in terms of emotions, so here's the question.

Do we have free will in heaven?

• YES:

  -Can our free will allow us to sin in heaven?
  -Yes
  If we can then there's a huge part of theology missing, maybe being saved isn't a once off deal after all - being saved mightn't be that special after all.
  
  NO:
  Then God has been able to create an environment which has free will but no sin - why couldn't we have had that from the get go?

• NO

  Heaven is a place with no free will?

[bogwalrus]

i think kelly for you to truly understand some of the points and views that are being made here you have to jump into the mind of the athiest and "put away" your religious ideas for a while. i dont think god would mind you experimenting.

The personification of the creator/god seems to be a big barrier in these discussions. God can be all the things mentioned in christianity but these things do not have to be humanised and personified like they are made out to be. Gods will is not like a humans will. We cannot explain gods actions in the way we can explain a humans actions......if ya know mean.