[johnnyskeleton]

Originally Posted by DonJose

The family of the murder victim have a life sentence, 15 years is nothing. Life should mean life.

Originally Posted by Muff Daddy

You might think 15 years is a long time for a murderer, but I do not. Not even close.

As I posted earlier, life does mean life. You are detained at the mercy of the Minister for Justice. If he wishes to keep you in prison all that time he can, if he wishes to release you, he can, if he decides you should go back in again for a spell, you can. There's no avoiding it. Your liberty is in his hands for the rest of your natural life.

It's easy to say that 15 years is nothing, it's easy to say 240 years (like the Americans hand out from time to time) is nothing, but the reality is that even a short spell in prision is not pleasant, and a stretch of years is much harder than it sounds. Think about everything you've done over the last 15 years and imagine it never happened to you. Think about how differently you saw the world back then. And think about spending 15 long years in a place like mountjoy. For the wrongly convicted it must be torture (see Papillon), for the remorseless it can wear them down, and for a fair few people, it's a long time to reflect on the mistakes of your youth.

Murder is a very serious crime, but I would say that no 2 murders are alike. You can't tar them all with the one brush, and the minister must do what he thinks is best for society. I think that the current system strikes a good balance - some sentences are too lenient, some are too harsh, but most are about right.

Originally Posted by DonJose

I've read stories of scumbags getting off with murder and getting a couple years for manslaughter. Only to be locked up again for murder at a later stage.

That they committed murder at a later stage does not mean that they committed murder the first time. It's a jury of 12 normal people who decide convictions, and their decision is, although not infallable, at least more reliable than any one person's opinion.

Originally Posted by bill_ashmount

This to me is a disgrace and an insult to the victims. 14 years on average for murder,

With respect, I think it is an even greater disgrace and insult to the victims of crime or the families of murder victims, when the people kick them about like political footballs in order to make the point that sentences are too lenient. I would venture to suggest that the majority of victims and families do not call for blood or demand massive sentences/death penalty etc. This is because they have to at some point get on with their lives, and the healthiest way to do this is to accept that no mortal punishment will undo the crime.

It is very difficult for the victims of crime to understand or even forgive their assailant, but many do, or at least try to, and that is a very admirable quality. Some victims want harsher sentences, they are entitled to address the court for this purpose, and I think this is a very important part of the criminal justice system. But the feelings of other victims, who want to move on from the crimes, should also be considered.

I respect the views of the victims of crime and the families of victims. Which is why I wouldn't use them to advocate my general view on sentencing. Their views are taken into account in particular instances, but I very much doubt that the daily calls for blood in the Herald come from the actual victims/families - I see this as political exploitation.

Originally Posted by bill_ashmount

i'm just surprised there isn't more murder when this is the average penalty.

That's exactly it - very few if any murders think about the potential penalty when they are committing the murder. It's not like stiffer penalties for road traffic offences or unpaid tv licences where people make rational choices about whether to commit the offence or it - murder doesn't work like that.

Originally Posted by Muff Daddy

To even suggest that 15 years for murder is a just sentence...quite frankly that's insane.

It is a sentence, what else is it?

Originally Posted by Muff Daddy

35 years of age is still young enough to live in luxury in another country where you wont be recognised. I don't believe murderers should be given a second chance either, you commit murder, you suffer the concequences.

If someone is convicted of murder, gets a life sentence, spends 15 years in prison and when released goes on to live a quiet, unassuming life, maybe occasionally getting drunk or illegally parking, but otherwise doesn't get into trouble or hurt anyone, then what is to be gained by killing them instead. Apart from any moral considerations, society benefits from the person not being executed, especially if he warns others off a life of crime. It seems to me that calls for stiffer sentences and the death penalty are people's way of voicing dissatisfaction with the rate of crime in Ireland. But while it's easy to demand tougher sentences, it's much harder to get more gardai and take action against crime. Hence politicians, newspapers etc want people to believe that the problem lies with sentencing, and then present stiff sentences as though they were a minor annoyance (15 years is nothing etc).

Originally Posted by Fighting Irish

police, prison guards etc etc are the same as everyone else

The idea behind stiffer penalties for attacking a policeman while on duty is that it is an attack on the state. The real reason for the criminal justice system is to maintain law and order in the country, and all the other reasons (rehabilitation, punishment, revenge etc) are just a sideshow.

[Muff_Daddy]

Originally Posted by johnnyskeleton

It is a sentence, what else is it?

I think you missunderstood me......I meant 'just' as in fair.

First of all johnnyskeleton, I do agree with you that no two murders are the same, and that every individual case of murder should be treated differently and fairly. Like I said in my original post, I believe the death penality should only be used to punish the absoloute worst of criminals. People who have intentionally and maliciously robbed another of the precious gift of life, and should never be allowed to enjoy the privilages, rights or freedoms you or I enjoy.

My opinion is not influenced by media. I don't read any of the rags, and I don't believe sob stories in the Evening Hearld either. But when I see a murdering gangster walking away from a place he should never be allowed leave, I'm able to say to myself "Hang on a minute......this is not right". The Death Penality would have ensured that the criminal would never walk free again. You may call it draconian, but I call it a fair price to pay for murder.

I respect your opinion, but I simply cannot comprehend a murderer being let out ever...let alone long enough to live a fulfulling life. I don't believe a murderer deserves a second chance, as nothing he could do for society could make up for his crimes, bar maybe curing cancer and wiping out AIDS......but then again I can't picture 'Dutchie' Holland becoming the next Mother Theresa. Thats all I'll say on the matter.

[grahamo]

Build a prison on a small uninhabited island out in the atlantic. Stick the scum in there for life and I mean LIFE! Allow them a visit once a year. When criminals take away people's rights they should lose their own. An added bonus is there will be no mobile phone signal so they won't be able to keep in touch with their cronies!

[Terry]

Originally Posted by grahamo

Build a prison on a small uninhabited island out in the atlantic. Stick the scum in there for life and I mean LIFE! Allow them a visit once a year. When criminals take away people's rights they should lose their own. An added bonus is there will be no mobile phone signal so they won't be able to keep in touch with their cronies!

Yeah. We could call it Spike island or something.

[L31mr0d]

?

Sometimes things like this scare me.

Does nobody believe in rehabilitation as the cure? People apply emotions to matters like this way too much, using terms like "scum".

Who has the right to say who should lose their life. Has anyone here who is pushing for the death sentence actually ever watched another humanbeing being killed in real life? It is truly horrific and anyone who thinks it is right for humans to kill other humans, regardless of there crime should watch what happens, and I don't mean watching the pasteurised lethal injection, watch a beheading, because in both instances the person ends up the same... dead.

We are a civilised society and in such we should be looking for ways to cure the perpetrator of these crimes and institute changes that will act as a future prevention to this. I don't believe locking people up or killing them solves anything. As locking up criminals just acts as a breeding ground to make criminals worse, and killing them doesn't explain to us why these people committed these crimes in the first place.

We need to be more proactive in curing the cause rather than the effect.

[astrofool]

A cure to a disease kills the disease

The biggest problem is that there are very few cases where rehabilitation does actually work. Also, what if a murderer could be fully rehabilitated in one week (and proven so), should he then walk free? Prison and the death penalty are both about revenge by society on that person for committing a crime.

[coolhandc]

kill them,whos gona miss them?might make other scumbags think twice in the future.and the gardai need to be armed,they have very little respect by some people,maybe if they were carrying a gun it would be different.prison sentences also need to be hardened.criminals are treated to well in prison in this country its a joke.

[PauloMN]

Originally Posted by astrofool

A cure to a disease kills the disease

The biggest problem is that there are very few cases where rehabilitation does actually work. Also, what if a murderer could be fully rehabilitated in one week (and proven so), should he then walk free? Prison and the death penalty are both about revenge by society on that person for committing a crime.

No, prison is about punishment, rehabilitation and removal of a potentially dangerous person from society, the death penalty is purely about revenge. Murdering people, either clinically in the name of a government, or by a criminal with a gun, is wrong IMO.

[Andrew76]

Originally Posted by rossie1977

that ain't what the paradox says, read it again it makes no mention of what you claim:



There have been documented cases of people being put to death in america despite being innocent of their crimes e.g Ruben Cantu.

rossie that paradox does fail but not for the reason astro mentions. Supporting the death penalty does not make you a murderer, it just makes you a supporter of the death penalty.

My own opinion is that the DP is wrong because of the innocent victim scenario but more so because it doesn't belong in a civilised society (one day in the far-off future we might get there).

[Terry]

Originally Posted by Andrew76

rossie that paradox does fail but not for the reason astro mentions. Supporting the death penalty does not make you a murderer, it just makes you a supporter of the death penalty.

My own opinion is that the DP is wrong because of the innocent victim scenario but more so because it doesn't belong in a civilised society (one day in the far-off future we might get there).

Hi. Welcome to Ireland.
The year is 2007.
It has been 53 years since anyone in this country was executed.

The death penalty was officially abolished in 2001.

[Andrew76]

Originally Posted by Terry

Hi. Welcome to Ireland.
The year is 2007.
It has been 53 years since anyone in this country was executed.

The death penalty was officially abolished in 2001.

I obviously wasn't clear in my post. Replace the word "society" with "human race". Maybe that might clear it up for you.

[Trojan911]

I fully support & agree with the Death Penalty. An eye for an eye, in my opinion. Despatch them off this earth as soon and as fast and as cheaply as possible after the guilty verdict is read out.

This applies to murder in all cases, civilian and emergency services.

TJ911...