[Oryx]

Hypothetically speaking, can a garage hold on to a customers vehicle until all repairs are paid for, even if the value of the vehicle is far in excess of the money owing?

[seamus]

No.

Quite simply. Retailers and any other services providers are not permitted to hold any of your property as a bond or collateral for monies owed to them. They are obliged to release your vehicle and they have two options;
1. Undo what they've done (which includes replacing any parts they removed)
2. Wait for you to pay and/or chase you for it in court.

Registered moneylenders (i.e. banks) have different rules about this, but your local garage is not a moneylender.

[dermot_sheehan]

Yes they could I thought, a mechanic holding on to a car in satisfaction of a debt is a classic example of a lien.

Originally Posted by seamus

No.

Quite simply. Retailers and any other services providers are not permitted to hold any of your property as a bond or collateral for monies owed to them. They are obliged to release your vehicle and they have two options;
1. Undo what they've done (which includes replacing any parts they removed)
2. Wait for you to pay and/or chase you for it in court.

Registered moneylenders (i.e. banks) have different rules about this, but your local garage is not a moneylender.

[Lplated]

(Not legal advice) I also respectfully disagree with the 'Super Moderators' opinion - repairs to a car are one of the few clear examples in Irish law of a 'lien' - which here means the garage can hold on to the car until the cost of repairs has been paid for.

Another example of a 'lien' is a clients file with a Solicitor - until any fees due on the file are paid, the Solicitor can, if he chooses, refuse to hand the file over to another Solicitor (at the clients request) or to the Client. The only way of getting over this would be to make an application to get a court order that the file be handed over.

[seamus]

OK, I'm going to check this out. I was basing my post on a similar thing which happened a few years back to my Mum; She got a repair and wasn't happy with the work, telling the guy that he wasn't getting paid, and she was bringing it elsewhere to be sorted. He flipped the lid and refused to hand the keys over. So we called the Gardai (I was with her at the time) who arrived and forced him to release the vehicle.

In terms of the solicitor scenario, I still think that's a different case - the file was never the client's property.

[seamus]

OK, a cursory glance over the statute book doesn't change my position. It would appear that a 'lien' is only written in law specifically for solicitors, moneylenders and hoteliers (who may hold onto you possessions until you pay them, believe it or not).

While I didn't find anything which specifically excluded other companies from this right, I didn't find anything which guaranteed it. I'd be interested if anyone else has any Irish links for this info.

[dermot_sheehan]

Originally Posted by seamus

OK, a cursory glance over the statute book doesn't change my position. It would appear that a 'lien' is only written in law specifically for solicitors, moneylenders and hoteliers (who may hold onto you possessions until you pay them, believe it or not).

While I didn't find anything which specifically excluded other companies from this right, I didn't find anything which guaranteed it. I'd be interested if anyone else has any Irish links for this info.

A lien is a common law defence for an action for detinue (civil claim for unlawfully holding personal property). I'm not sure i'd see it mentioned in any statutes.

Mechanic in that situation would have been perfectly within his rights to tell the guards to go to hell.

[seamus]

Does common law apply here though? That is, is there a precedent of common law being used successfully in this country?

[hullaballoo]

gabhain, is a lien not an equitable remedy? I'm studying commercial law at the moment for my exams, and I'm pretty damn good at it, and I'm pretty sure that the "mechanic's lien" is an equitable remedy in this jurisdiction. It's a common law remedy in the US because they don't have equity.

The other option is that it could potentially be argued that it's a contract for the sale of goods (if the contract was substantially for goods as opposed to services), then the unpaid seller's lien under s 39 of the Sale of Goods Act 1893 applies.

I'll have to look into it further tomorrow.

[dermot_sheehan]

Originally Posted by hullaballoo

gabhain, is a lien not an equitable remedy? I'm studying commercial law at the moment for my exams, and I'm pretty damn good at it, and I'm pretty sure that the "mechanic's lien" is an equitable remedy in this jurisdiction. It's a common law remedy in the US because they don't have equity.

The other option is that it could potentially be argued that it's a contract for the sale of goods (if the contract was substantially for goods as opposed to services), then the unpaid seller's lien under s 39 of the Sale of Goods Act 1893 applies.

I'll have to look into it further tomorrow.

I'm not sure if it was common law or equity based, I meant in the term "common law" as it was created by courts through the action of precedence throughout the years and not created by statute (OP had a look at irishstatutebook.ie and couldnt find much on it).

[hullaballoo]

Ok, well if it's an equitable remedy, then it's entirely discretionary. In such a case then, the courts will look at the circumstances inolved, and will do what is most fair - thus "equity". Or thereabouts.

[dermot_sheehan]

Originally Posted by hullaballoo

Ok, well if it's an equitable remedy, then it's entirely discretionary. In such a case then, the courts will look at the circumstances inolved, and will do what is most fair - thus "equity". Or thereabouts.

I must admit i have not much expertise in this area, but my understanding is since it's a defence to a tort (detinue), there is no discretion in applying it.

Maybe equity might act to create an equitable proprietry right in the object? I'm not sure.

[dermot_sheehan]

Originally Posted by seamus

Does common law apply here though? That is, is there a precedent of common law being used successfully in this country?

We have a common law legal system, crimes such as manslaughter are common law offences. Torts are based on common law concepts such as negligence and trespass. Mortgages are based on the equitable right to redeem created by the old courts of chancery, injunctions too are not a product of statute.

Much of our legal system was created not by act of parliament but by precedent.

[Oryx]

Thanks guys, for all the replies. Dont come at this from a legal background, but my thinking on it was that if a garage cannot hold a vehicle pending payment, what incentive or pressure is there on any customer to ever pay a bill?

[Eru]

Originally Posted by gabhain7

We have a common law legal system, crimes such as manslaughter are common law offences. Torts are based on common law concepts such as negligence and trespass. Mortgages are based on the equitable right to redeem created by the old courts of chancery, injunctions too are not a product of statute.

Much of our legal system was created not by act of parliament but by precedent.

Im not advising one way or the other on the actual case scenario but this should be corrected.

Manslaughter is not common law, its clearly covered under the Non fatal offences against the person Act 1997. Common law is something that dates back further than statute or case law and has never been replaced by either. As a result manslaughter is not common law. My power to search you after arrest is common law too give an example.