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joebhoy1916 · 30-04-2006, 23:21

This is where my argument arises out of the O'Hare case. Judges have the job of sentencing criminals, and it is also their job to decide whether such people who have been sentenced should be released from such a sentence that they have handed down.

Maybe so but you are wrong in this case.

And to answer your question no i havent!

Dessie O`Hare aka `The Border Fox`, who has served fourteen years in prison for the kidnapping and mutilation of a Dublin dentist in 1987, is being prepared for release under the Good Friday Agreement.

O`Hare and members of his gang abducted John O`Grady and held him captive for a period in 1987.

A ransom demand was issued and when Gardai failed to find it under a statue of The Blessed Virgin in Limerick Cathedral O`Hare, who had mistakenly assumed they had been stalling for more time, cut off the little finger on each of Mr O`Grady`s hands.

There then followed a desperate manhunt during which he eluded capture for a number of weeks and during which O`Hare was nicknamed the Border Fox.

As a member of the INLA he was entitled to early release from his 40 year sentence under the Good Friday Agreement and has been transferred to Castlerea Prison from Portlaoise where he has spent the past fourteen years.

This was wrote in 2002. Where are you from? Hulla

**hullaballoo** · 01-05-2006, 00:06

It's none of your business where I'm from.

Incidentally, I'm not going to be told I'm wrong on an issue of constitutional law by someone who admits to never having read the constitution. I mean, how ridiculous are you trying to make yourself look?

I can't fathom what you're trying to get at by typing what appear to be newspaper reports, without attributing them to any particular newspaper at all. Maybe you could explain the point of that? All your doing is setting down the facts without addressing any of the legal issues. This is the Legal Discussion forum. If you want to spout nationalist ráiméis, you can do it in After Hours, but not in here.

Anyway, aside from the legal issues, O'Hare should still be in gaol for what he did. Serving less than half of your sentence for the mutilation of another man for financial gain is unbelieveable. Add to that all of the other offences he's been implicated in and you'll see the reasoning behind such a strict sentence. My point is that the government do not have the power to second-guess the courts on these matters. Of that I am sure.

Eru · 01-05-2006, 00:19

Ah I agree, Im all turned around thanks to these compelling facts:

1. Dessie's "crime", if 'crime' it was, was to be an active Republican.
Hmmm, chopping off fingers that belong to citizens of the republic of Ireland is not a crime in the eyes of the INLA, good view of justice from the trenches there.

2. Dessie is being victimised, discriminated against and demonised by the state authorities. And yet his activities were no different from those of hundreds of others released under the GFA.
I partly agree, most Republican scumbags terrorised and tortured innocent people.

Both quoted from http://irsm.org/irsp/free_dessie/background.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by joebhoy1916

1. Both Governments will put in place mechanisms to provide for an accelerated programme for the release of prisoners, including transferred prisoners, convicted of scheduled offences in Northern Ireland or, in the case of those sentenced outside Northern Ireland, similar offences (referred to hereafter as qualifying prisoners). Any such arrangements will protect the rights of individual prisoners under national and international law

Doesnt matter where his crime was commited he
was a "political prisoner" or if you like a qualifying
prisoner. (Goverment 2001).

The Governments will seek to enact the appropriate legislation to give effect to these arrangements by the end of June 1998.

The man should of been out years ago.

Now, I have to take issue here as you are guilty of selective quoting and an incorrect comment.

A, You have quoted part 1 however in part 3 it states: "while allowing account to be taken of the seriousness of the offences for which the person was convicted and the need to protect the community" This is important, there is reason to worry for the safety of society should he be released.

B, This is the important one, Part 1 and just about every reference clearly states "convicted of scheduled offences in Northern Ireland or, in the case of those sentenced outside Northern Ireland, similar offences" can you please advise if kidnapping and assault are scheduled offences or similar? I do believe they are not. In fact they are not once mentioned as a scheduled offence in either Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland therefore he does not fall under the good friday agreement and is not due for release.

**Deleted a needless insult**

joebhoy1916 · 01-05-2006, 00:28

http://saoirse32.blogsome.com/2005/0...e-now%E2%80%99

Read near bottom

This has nothing to do with O Hare but might be worth reading

http://www.rte.ie/news/2000/0808/prisoners.html

I aint a Provo

Eru · 01-05-2006, 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by joebhoy1916

http://saoirse32.blogsome.com/2005/0...e-now%E2%80%99

Read near bottom

I dont as a rule read provo propaganda however I followed the link, no actual posts just a page with a pic of Bobby Sands and a logo. Its also a blog, it could say aliens have infiltrated the IRA, dont make it true however post another link and I will look.

Quote:

Originally Posted by joebhoy1916

This has nothing to do with O Hare but might be worth reading

http://www.rte.ie/news/2000/0808/prisoners.html

Vaguely interesting OK but armed robbery falls under fireams offences so could be scheduled. Assault didnt involve firearm and your really pushing to bring the kidnapping in. This guy however has no chance, he wasnt a member of the INLA when the GFA came in or when the INLA went on a ceasefire. His arguement is the same as every Dublin criminal, "Im not in a non-ceasefire group", And????

Quote:

Originally Posted by joebhoy1916

I aint a Provo

I said a pub provo, you support them.

**dermot_sheehan** · 01-05-2006, 01:01

Just to add some points:

The power to commute is vested in the president, who acts on the advice of the government in using it (i.e. she has no discretion). The constitution provides that except in capital cases it may be delegated by law. The Criminal justice act (1951 I think) delegates it on the minister for justice.

So anyone who is serving time except for treason or capital murder may be released on licence by the minister for justice.

My own personal views are that he's scum and should never breathe free air again, but remember we are willing to release murderers under the good friday agreement in order to appease the IRA, and as bad as what O'Hare did, is it worse then taking someone else's life? Also I think it's BS that he qualifies since he only joined the INLA while in portlaoise and the INLA themselves qualifying under the GFA is tenuous at best.

joebhoy1916 · 01-05-2006, 01:21

I dont think i need to say anymore on the matter
someone thats not from my country is trying to
tell me im wrong. Em thats not true i dont believe,
he was the Provo's first at a young age then switched
to the INLA.

I dont support the Provo's anyways there long
gone my friend the war is over.

**hullaballoo** · 01-05-2006, 01:28

What do you mean not from your country?

**dermot_sheehan** · 01-05-2006, 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by joebhoy1916

I dont think i need to say anymore on the matter
someone thats not from my country is trying to
tell me im wrong. Em thats not true i dont believe,
he was the Provo's first at a young age then switched
to the INLA.

I dont support the Provo's anyways there long
gone my friend the war is over.

And being in provos is not a get out of jail free card, it's more like a get put into jail on the word of a garda seargent.

The war may be over, but did o'hare's kidnap, ransom, an mutilation of an innocent dentist further that "war"?

joebhoy1916 · 01-05-2006, 01:55

What you on about Gab i never said anything about you.

And i believe its the Criminal Justice (Temporary Release of Prisoners) Bill, 2001

And being in provos is not a get out of jail free card, it's more like a get put into jail on the word of a garda seargent. (I would agree)

The war may be over, but did o'hare's kidnap, ransom, an mutilation of an innocent dentist further that "war"?[/QUOTE]

Im not sticking up for the man im just saying it was his right
to be freed. He served 18 years for what cutting off a man's
two small fingers killers wouldnt even get 18 years

**dermot_sheehan** · 01-05-2006, 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by joebhoy1916

What you on about Gab i never said anything about you.

And i believe its the Criminal Justice (Temporary Release of Prisoners) Bill, 2001

And being in provos is not a get out of jail free card, it's more like a get put into jail on the word of a garda seargent. (I would agree)

The war may be over, but did o'hare's kidnap, ransom, an mutilation of an innocent dentist further that "war"?

Im not sticking up for the man im just saying it was his right
to be freed. He served 18 years for what cutting off a man's
two small fingers killers wouldnt even get 18 years[/quote]

Ok, assumed you were referring to me.

He's freed on licence anyways, so the department of justice can call him in at any time, and even though he's servered only 18 years, remember many murderers don't serve that long.

joebhoy1916 · 01-05-2006, 02:29

He's freed on licence anyways, so the department of justice can call him in at any time

Yes he has to sign on next month and from what im aware
he's as good as a free man.

and even though he's servered only 18 years, remember many murderers don't serve that long.[/QUOTE]

Thats what im saying he got 40 years (the longest sentence ever handed down by the state for less than murder) for cutting a guys two
fingers off well ok he kidnapped him and he might of killed
him if the Garda didnt find him the man is nearly 50 now.
He is in jail most of his life and if he is half as bad as i think
he will be back in there soon enough.

joebhoy1916 · 05-05-2006, 23:05

Hulla was just wondering if you clear this
up whether I was right or wrong?

mountainyman · 09-05-2006, 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by hullaballoo

Anyway, aside from the legal issues, O'Hare should still be in gaol for what he did.

There are individuals who should be detained permanently on utilitarian grounds. This is not in accordance with law. The initial sentence was absurd and amounted to the construction of ad hoc law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hullaballoo

My point is that the government do not have the power to second-guess the courts on these matters. Of that I am sure.

You are quite right and the point is totally irrelevant. The judiciary (like the executive) are subordinate to the legislature. The exercise of justice was not assumed by the legislature. New guidelines were provided to the judiciary regarding parole and license. These are guidelines which the judiciary must follow. Given that they were put in place by the Dail there is no chance whatever of a judicial revolt. Had the Minister for Justice sought to impose the GFA there would have been such a revolt.

Was there an Article 26 referral of the GFA?

Pardons have not been granted

While it may be bad to cut off a mans little fingers the construction of ad hoc law is far worse.

Justice Carney in effect created ad hoc law. This is a continuing problem in the republic.

MM

**hullaballoo** · 09-05-2006, 11:38

I'd edit out that defamatory comment quick-smart if you want to escape a ban, MM.

Aside from any of that. You are incorrect to state that the judiciary is a subordinate body to any of the other powers. The powers are all equal in terms of authority, they just each have different jobs. If the judiciary were subordinate to the government, then they would not be able to pronounce on the legality of state activity.

The sentence was not unreasonable in the least. Threatening to post a mans body to his relatives piece by piece is deserving of a heavy sentence.

30-04-2006, 23:21	#16
joebhoy1916 Banned Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Growing weed in your attic Posts: 987 Adverts \| Friends	This is where my argument arises out of the O'Hare case. Judges have the job of sentencing criminals, and it is also their job to decide whether such people who have been sentenced should be released from such a sentence that they have handed down. Maybe so but you are wrong in this case. And to answer your question no i havent! Dessie O`Hare aka `The Border Fox`, who has served fourteen years in prison for the kidnapping and mutilation of a Dublin dentist in 1987, is being prepared for release under the Good Friday Agreement. O`Hare and members of his gang abducted John O`Grady and held him captive for a period in 1987. A ransom demand was issued and when Gardai failed to find it under a statue of The Blessed Virgin in Limerick Cathedral O`Hare, who had mistakenly assumed they had been stalling for more time, cut off the little finger on each of Mr O`Grady`s hands. There then followed a desperate manhunt during which he eluded capture for a number of weeks and during which O`Hare was nicknamed the Border Fox. As a member of the INLA he was entitled to early release from his 40 year sentence under the Good Friday Agreement and has been transferred to Castlerea Prison from Portlaoise where he has spent the past fourteen years. This was wrote in 2002. Where are you from? Hulla Last edited by joebhoy1916; 30-04-2006 at 23:24.

01-05-2006, 00:28	#19
joebhoy1916 Banned Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Growing weed in your attic Posts: 987 Adverts \| Friends	http://saoirse32.blogsome.com/2005/0...e-now%E2%80%99 Read near bottom This has nothing to do with O Hare but might be worth reading http://www.rte.ie/news/2000/0808/prisoners.html I aint a Provo Last edited by joebhoy1916; 01-05-2006 at 00:43.

01-05-2006, 01:55	#25
joebhoy1916 Banned Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Growing weed in your attic Posts: 987 Adverts \| Friends	What you on about Gab i never said anything about you. And i believe its the Criminal Justice (Temporary Release of Prisoners) Bill, 2001 And being in provos is not a get out of jail free card, it's more like a get put into jail on the word of a garda seargent. (I would agree) The war may be over, but did o'hare's kidnap, ransom, an mutilation of an innocent dentist further that "war"?[/QUOTE] Im not sticking up for the man im just saying it was his right to be freed. He served 18 years for what cutting off a man's two small fingers killers wouldnt even get 18 years Last edited by joebhoy1916; 01-05-2006 at 02:00.

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01-05-2006, 00:06	#17
hullaballoo Vidi, vici, veni. Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: l�g n-enech Posts: 6,740 Adverts \| Friends Mod: Legal Discussion, Spell Czechs	It's none of your business where I'm from. Incidentally, I'm not going to be told I'm wrong on an issue of constitutional law by someone who admits to never having read the constitution. I mean, how ridiculous are you trying to make yourself look? I can't fathom what you're trying to get at by typing what appear to be newspaper reports, without attributing them to any particular newspaper at all. Maybe you could explain the point of that? All your doing is setting down the facts without addressing any of the legal issues. This is the Legal Discussion forum. If you want to spout nationalist ráiméis, you can do it in After Hours, but not in here. Anyway, aside from the legal issues, O'Hare should still be in gaol for what he did. Serving less than half of your sentence for the mutilation of another man for financial gain is unbelieveable. Add to that all of the other offences he's been implicated in and you'll see the reasoning behind such a strict sentence. My point is that the government do not have the power to second-guess the courts on these matters. Of that I am sure.

01-05-2006, 01:01	#21
dermot_sheehan Moderator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Dublin Posts: 2,025 Adverts \| Friends Mod: Legal Discussion	Just to add some points: The power to commute is vested in the president, who acts on the advice of the government in using it (i.e. she has no discretion). The constitution provides that except in capital cases it may be delegated by law. The Criminal justice act (1951 I think) delegates it on the minister for justice. So anyone who is serving time except for treason or capital murder may be released on licence by the minister for justice. My own personal views are that he's scum and should never breathe free air again, but remember we are willing to release murderers under the good friday agreement in order to appease the IRA, and as bad as what O'Hare did, is it worse then taking someone else's life? Also I think it's BS that he qualifies since he only joined the INLA while in portlaoise and the INLA themselves qualifying under the GFA is tenuous at best.

01-05-2006, 01:21	#22
joebhoy1916 Banned Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Growing weed in your attic Posts: 987 Adverts \| Friends	I dont think i need to say anymore on the matter someone thats not from my country is trying to tell me im wrong. Em thats not true i dont believe, he was the Provo's first at a young age then switched to the INLA. I dont support the Provo's anyways there long gone my friend the war is over.

01-05-2006, 01:28	#23
hullaballoo Vidi, vici, veni. Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: l�g n-enech Posts: 6,740 Adverts \| Friends Mod: Legal Discussion, Spell Czechs	What do you mean not from your country?

01-05-2006, 02:29	#27
joebhoy1916 Banned Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Growing weed in your attic Posts: 987 Adverts \| Friends	He's freed on licence anyways, so the department of justice can call him in at any time Yes he has to sign on next month and from what im aware he's as good as a free man. and even though he's servered only 18 years, remember many murderers don't serve that long.[/QUOTE] Thats what im saying he got 40 years (the longest sentence ever handed down by the state for less than murder) for cutting a guys two fingers off well ok he kidnapped him and he might of killed him if the Garda didnt find him the man is nearly 50 now. He is in jail most of his life and if he is half as bad as i think he will be back in there soon enough.

05-05-2006, 23:05	#28
joebhoy1916 Banned Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Growing weed in your attic Posts: 987 Adverts \| Friends	Hulla was just wondering if you clear this up whether I was right or wrong?

09-05-2006, 11:38	#30
hullaballoo Vidi, vici, veni. Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: l�g n-enech Posts: 6,740 Adverts \| Friends Mod: Legal Discussion, Spell Czechs	I'd edit out that defamatory comment quick-smart if you want to escape a ban, MM. Aside from any of that. You are incorrect to state that the judiciary is a subordinate body to any of the other powers. The powers are all equal in terms of authority, they just each have different jobs. If the judiciary were subordinate to the government, then they would not be able to pronounce on the legality of state activity. The sentence was not unreasonable in the least. Threatening to post a mans body to his relatives piece by piece is deserving of a heavy sentence.