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30-03-2006, 14:39   #46
Stimpyone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ishmael whale
I'm not sure its that pat. If someone owns 75% of Aer Lingus and wants to use the slots for a more profitable route, surely they would be able to complain to the European Commission if the Irish Government tried to prevent them on national interest grounds.
Eh, what would it have to do with the european commision?. The government would simply be a majorty stake holder in a floated company.

They could object to anything for whatever reason, it's their prerogative.
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30-03-2006, 15:07   #47
dowlingm
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Spain has had to commit to divesting itself of "golden shares" (which allow control government voting strength doesn't provide) because of EU pressure. This includes Iberia.
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30-03-2006, 15:18   #48
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Willie bloody Walsh my arse, he's no Bill Gates or Rockefeller. He was paid to do a job, he did it and was paid handsomely but to make out he was the airlines saviour is stretchingit a bit. The moment he didn't get his way he ran, so there's his loyaly and so called love for the airline. The people of Aer Lingus saved the airline and the men in suits also played their part as we all know leadership is essential for any business, but a guy who runs the first time he gets refused something is not the type of guy I'd trust to run a national airline, he's a damn liability. Why the urgent necessity to buy the airline, it's not as if he was going to be on the streets and short of cash, he had a very good job, all the perks and benefits and prestige and still he was not satisfied. That airline is part of our identity and cannot be sold, business is business I know, but sometimes pride and patriotism come first. The selling of it is nowhere near essential. The airline is profitable, has class and can continue to do so staying Irish.

I do happen to believe that certain things in a countries society should always remain controlled by that country and Ireland being a relatively small country should at least be able to say that it has got its own Airline. I've no problem whatsoever with new airlines being set up by private enterprise here, making the market more competitive, but as a safety net, keep something that the people can never lose. I can't think of a better candidate than one's own national airline
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30-03-2006, 15:31   #49
GOAT_Ali
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Balooba, lets say it is sold and sold to an Irish consortium, so what???
What is to stop this crowd from stripping it and selling it to whoever they want. The answer is nothing could stop them and where the hell does that leave Aer Lingus, one of Ireland's greatest discoveries.....Surely I'm not in the minority in being shocked at the possibility of this happening?

I just wouldn't be too happy to suddenly realise that Aer Lingus which has dominated our skies for over 50 yrs is now no longer Irish, no longer carries the shamrock and has no more links or ties to this country, all for MAYBE slightly cheaper flights, little more leg room, extra free drinks or whatever so called privatisation brings???!!!

Last edited by GOAT_Ali; 30-03-2006 at 15:37.
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30-03-2006, 15:56   #50
ballooba
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How is Aer Lingus one of our greatest discoveries? It's a company, it was formed, not discovered. You seem to have this strange obsession with comparing it to a precious stone or metal (or 'treasure'). Indeed precious stones and metals are discovered, airlines are not.

Because the government will keep having top subsidise it. i.e. My taxes will have to keep subsidising semi-state workers because they don't have to make a profit.

What makes you think the businessmen are any more greedy than the unions? All they want is an ESOT. The same as they got in Eircom and they seek in ESB.

Last edited by ballooba; 30-03-2006 at 15:59.
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30-03-2006, 19:14   #51
GOAT_Ali
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Look Balooba, obviously we'll never agree on this one. You give me the impression that really nothing is sacred or nothing should be considered truly Irish and basically anything is for sale in your eyes. Wheteher it's sold or not it is without question a true symbol of this country, no matter what spin you or any greedy businessmen put on it, company, profits, expansion, competitive, diversify etc etc. I'm not a Union lover and maybe the people in Aer Lingus have been riding the system, but that does not give anyone the right to use this as an excuse to sell this airline, fix it and move on, though it's doing pretty well at the moment regardless. I also do not discurage competition and if it takes other airlines to move here and make Aer Lingus fight for every fare, so be it as long as we can keep the airline thoroughly Irish. What's the harm in that??
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30-03-2006, 19:39   #52
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No harm at all ..as long as its privatised and run as a proper commercial company ..not as safe nest for wasters and whingers who are afraid of a hard days work.
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30-03-2006, 20:21   #53
walshb
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And why does it have to be sold in order to run properly. This is what I do not get, it's running fairly OK now. Why fix something if it's not broken?. Those so called whingers have the company as it is now which is profitable and to say they are all the same is very wrong. A lot of those workers are there for two reasons, to make money and for the love of the job. In every company, private or not you will get dossers and guys who are on power trips, including the Willie Walshs'. Bottom line is that is not necessary to sell the company to make it a success, just shake it up and improvise.
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30-03-2006, 20:59   #54
DublinWriter
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Originally Posted by walshb
Bottom line is that is not necessary to sell the company to make it a success, just shake it up and improvise.
No, the bottom line is that it needs €500million capital investment to replace it's transatlantic fleet.

Now given the A&E crises, do you think any government will seriously spend that kind of money on aeroplanes?

Shake it up and improvise? It's a major business, not a jazzercise routine.

Willie Walsh already 'shook-it-up' and leaned off all the fat, including selling off the paintings on the walls in HQ offices.

Remember, if it wasn't for Willie Walsh, you wouldn't have any big green planes to get all tingly about today.

I'm all for privatising the company, but it mustn't allowed to be asset-stripped by VC's as Eircom was.
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30-03-2006, 21:48   #55
walshb
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Don't use the health crisis as a reason, money is no issue as regards that problem. I wonder how poor old Aer Lingus coped before Willie. Isn't he amazing, so much so, where is he now I ask. He's a businessman whose sole purpose is to make money and lots of it, not for us the customers, but for himself. You hardly think that no money should be given to Aer Lingus, being in Government control means it is entitled to Government money as are all areas in this country. Aer Lingus needs money just like any other semi state.
The company as far as I'm concerned is just as much entitled to it as the health department, education department etc etc. And it's a damn sight more entitled to it than the businessmen who want to take it over.

It was nice debating with you guys, but I'll leave it. Everyone has their beliefs and views. I guess I just am a little prouder of its beginnings and its status on this island and feel it should continue to be the property of this country, no excuses.
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30-03-2006, 21:53   #56
GOAT_Ali
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DublinWriter


I'm all for privatising the company, but it mustn't allowed to be asset-stripped by VC's as Eircom was.
And what law can prevent this type of scenario from happening?, that's my whole point as regards its potential sale. It can be destroyed by this behavior
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30-03-2006, 22:22   #57
DublinWriter
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Originally Posted by walshb
I wonder how poor old Aer Lingus coped before Willie.
Where the f*ck were you in 2000/2001 when Aer Lingus was a couple of months away from total bankruptcy? It was all over the 6.1 news for a week!

Do you know *anything* about what happened to Sabena?


Quote:
Isn't he amazing, so much so, where is he now I ask. He's a businessman whose sole purpose is to make money and lots of it
Where is he now? Chairman of one the biggest and most prestigious airlines in the world, that's where. Successfull businessmen make jobs. End of story.

If you believe that nationalised industry still works in the 21st century, then move to France.
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30-03-2006, 22:23   #58
ballooba
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Originally Posted by GOAT_Ali
Look Balooba, obviously we'll never agree on this one. You give me the impression that really nothing is sacred or nothing should be considered truly Irish and basically anything is for sale in your eyes.
Complete horsesh:t. Plenty of things are sacred The Dail, The GPO (building, not An Post itself), Dublin Castle, Newgrange, The Burren, The Ardagh Chalice, The Book of Kells, Christchurch Cathedral, Asgard I, Kilmainham Gaol.

Notice something about the above? Not one of them is a business.

Would you be so nostalgic about ESB if it was being privatised? No? Maybe because it's not as 'glamorous' in your eyes as Aer Lingus.
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30-03-2006, 22:28   #59
ishmael whale
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Originally Posted by Stimpyone
Eh, what would it have to do with the european commision?. The government would simply be a majorty stake holder in a floated company.

They could object to anything for whatever reason, it's their prerogative.
If you look at the link below you’ll see several cases where the Commission has been successful in getting the European Court to strike out ‘golden share’ arrangements, in situations which in principle were much the same as the Aer Lingus slots issue.

Remember you are not talking about the State being a majority shareholder. As you say yourself, the situation is more likely to be the State maintaining a minority holder with the hope of being able to impose conditions on the holders of the majority stake. That formula has been tried elsewhere, and found incompatable with EU law.

I don’t hold with any of the misty-eyed nonsense about Aer Lingus and those lovely adverts with Gabriel’s Oboe as the background music. But I dare say someone could find a better use for the Heathrow slots than flying little planeloads of Paddies back and forth. The only reason for keeping Aer Lingus in public ownership is to protect the slots, and that might be enough of a reason.

However, what will swing the issue in the end will be the interplay of union pressure and the forthcoming election on the one hand and the political difficulty of investing money in a State airline for reasons few can relate to on the other. I don’t think our strategic national interest in the slots will feature much in anyone’s thinking, and I expect the Government would be happy to spin that this can be looked after with a golden share arrangement even if they know it would not stick if challenged.

http://europa.eu.int/comm/internal_m...k/court_en.htm

Quote:
http://lawzone.thelawyer.com/cgi-bin...04&h=252&f=209
Germany must give up 'golden share' in VW, says European Commission
The difference of opinion between the European Commission and Germany over the lawfulness of the State's golden share in car manufacturer Volkswagen culminated today when the Commission announced that it was taking the matter to the European Court of Justice……..

Armed with the findings of the Court in earlier cases involving golden shares held by France in the oil company Elf, by Belgium in gas company Distrigaz, and by Portugal in certain energy and telecom companies, the Commission has now stepped up the pressure on Germany. The Court recognised that golden shares could be valid in certain circumstances, such as the State's security, but on the back of these earlier judgments, it is now difficult to imagine that Germany's arguments in relation to VW will stand before the ECJ. Germany's case will not be helped either by the UK's recent announcement that it will dispose of its golden share in the airport services operator BAA after a Court ruling in May 2003.
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30-03-2006, 22:43   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ishmael whale
The only reason for keeping Aer Lingus in public ownership is to protect the slots, and that might be enough of a reason
I think it's already been said, but the value of the Heathrow slots is becoming less and less important as Aer Lingus develops it's own route network and stops being a shuttle service feeding BA long haul. If they can be sold to fund a long haul fleet then that's great. It will save us all from having to transit through the hell that is Heathrow. And we can all take pride in seeing the shamrock in Dubai, Hong Kong, Sydney and Capetown

If I want to go to London I'll go to Gatwick (which Aer Lingus could get back into if it wants)
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