Boards.ie

dam099 · 07-12-2005, 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by PandaMania

I am not kidding. I wish I had a link for this report, it is only halarious but sickening at the same time. You can see from reading it were it all went wrong for Ireland and public transport. From the Oxford City Guide citing Dublin's Tram network as the best run and more comprehensive on earth" in 1900 to were we are today.

Anyone have any links to maps of the old network before it was all torn up?

**Capt'n Midnight** · 07-12-2005, 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurgle

Sure, if you don't mind spending 20 minutes waiting for a bus, 40 minutes on the bus, 10 minutes walking to the bus stop for the next bus, another 20 minutes waiting for it and 40 minutes on it, rather than an hour's drive, covering 6 miles.

Even an rush hour, you'll get there faster in the car.

Sounds like my drive to work, except that it's a 15 minute walk to the first bus stop. Also when the schools (hint: school buses !) are off I can do an alternative 10 mile route in 35 minutes.

Almost all of the shortest route from home to work is on the R113 most of it with 24 hour bus lanes. The nearest thing to a direct route is the 76 Still have to get too buses - but you don't have to change in the city centre. It would litterly be quicker to walk, I reckon if the bus lanes were used the R113 trip could be done in about 25 minutes

MarkoP11 · 08-12-2005, 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by dam099

Anyone have any links to maps of the old network before it was all torn up?

This is possibly the best one

http://www.ucd.ie/library/services_&...ivicsurvey.pdf

Its 4.2mb but its worth it

PandaMania · 08-12-2005, 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by dam099

Anyone have any links to maps of the old network before it was all torn up?

They are very rare (amazingly the IRRS have the most detailed maps, drawings and other artifacts from the most obscure rural Irish railway branch lines, but almost nothing of the world class tram systems of Dublin.

If you want to see the last Dublin tram system map, there is one framed in O'Neills pub on Pearse Street in Dublin. At the end of the bar.

gjim · 08-12-2005, 01:47

Quote:

It's a total gem for all the wrong reasons.

I disagree completely. I've read a couple of sections of it and the vast majority of what I've read was not only completely sensible but weirdly prescient. This was drawn 50 years before they started the M50 -

They spend quite a bit of time on roads and cars but they also discuss the railways in a completely rational way although they were a bit overly optimistic about the advantages offered by the newfangled (at the time) buses.

If you think that Dublin's unsustainable pattern of sprawling development is something that happened by accident during the economic boom of the last 15 years, then you should read this section. Their notions of urban planning and development are entirely modern. The sad thing is that they observed that Dublin was in the fortunate position to avoid the undesirable fate of the sprawling cities of Britain. Well we've blown that one despite a warning 65 years ago.

They recognise the need for Busaras. They predict that the Harcourt line might be replaced by an electrified light-rail line. They correctly diagnose the problem with the main city rail lines (that they don't come "in" far enough) - effectively stating the problem that the interconnector solves.

They get some things wrong but I don't see anything to scoff at in the report.

MorningStar · 08-12-2005, 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garibaldi

Isn't cycling already cheaper than driving?

A lot of people take the view that if they are spening all this money on their cars they will use it as much as possible. A general view change is best but increasing costs is considered the best as it also has a financial reward for the government too. People aren't wrong saying they get screwed over with car costs. The point is the governments position is very defendable due to the very nature of cars. It is very similar to the tax on fags except popular view is now firmly against them it just took a little while. All the kids being raised in cars may really dislike spending time in them as a result. THere will also be higher density so I see the next generation moving back closer to the cities.

**Capt'n Midnight** · 08-12-2005, 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by MorningStar

A lot of people take the view that if they are spening all this money on their cars they will use it as much as possible.

we live on an Island. A little negotiation with the lads up north and we could have an increased tax on fuel to replace road tax/basic insurance so people pay per usage and get real saving by leaving the car at home.

congestion charging is not yet an option as there are no free flowing circular bus routes. the few non-radial ones are rare, slow and unpredictable.

PandaMania · 08-12-2005, 13:57

Looking at the map posted inspired me to get out my copy on the history of Dublin trams by M Cochrane. It is a facinating insight into were it all went wrong when it came to public transport in Dev's Holy Catholic Gaelic Ireland.

In its final year of operation the Dublin trams were carrying 50 million passengers a year - let me repeat that again FIFTY MILLION PASSENGERS A YEAR. (the "vital" Western Rail Corridor which lasted 25 more years than the Dublin trams carried less than 50 passengers a week.)

People at the time who protested against the tram closings on the grounds that the system was busy and not dependent on imported oil were potrayed as luddites and "scared of progess".

The Dublin Trams electricial system was consider a marvel of engineering and their generating stations became international meccas for engineers from around the world who were in awe of the genius and brilliance.

The Dublin Trams despite drivers being killed, continue to run under fire during the 1916 Easter Rising and while German bombs fell on the city in 1940. (compare that to the pussy boy DART drivers and their stress payments for hauling two extra carraiges!)

When CIE was formed it was hoped that well run Dublin United Tramways would help educate the directors of the Great Southern Railway (who were mostly Fianna Fail political appointees from rural Ireland along with landed gentry types who knew more about fox hunting than urban living) in the hope that CIE would operate a well run public transport system. What happened was that the DUTC managers were isolated from decision making and the trams were instead subjected to the GSR incompetence rather than the railways being subjected to DUTC professionalism.

One of the first acts of CIE was to levy a huge fare increase on the Dublin and Cork trams and Limerick city bus services in order to subsidies rural rail services (social justice eh?). Upgrade and maintainance on the Dublin Trams was slowly stopped to the point were a fully integrated tramway system which was the envy of the world, had no more importance within CIE as the rural branch lines west of the Shannon.

I suggest that people who are interested in public transport in Ireland and have wondered why we have a third world system read Through Streets Broad and Narrow, you'll be amazed at a history most Irish people do not know about (yes but we all know about Peig Sayers don't we...).

Although CIE did get better in time, the early years can be viewed as little more than settling scores on former rival rail companies of the GSR. It was not only Dublin commuters who were screwed. The Waterford and Tramore was a decent little (non GSR) commuter railway which CIE closed even though it made a profit from the day it opened to the day it closed. The West Cork lines (non GRS) although they were poorly used (still carried way more passengers than the WRC) for the most part, they also contained decent commuter traffic on some sections, CIE binned the whole lot).

One of the more amusing parts of the book is that CIE always placed high value on PR and spin and used this tool to cover their ineptitude and poor customer service. Howya Barry!

MorningStar · 08-12-2005, 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt'n Midnight

we live on an Island. A little negotiation with the lads up north and we could have an increased tax on fuel to replace road tax/basic insurance so people pay per usage and get real saving by leaving the car at home.

congestion charging is not yet an option as there are no free flowing circular bus routes. the few non-radial ones are rare, slow and unpredictable.

The problem there is congestion is only a problem in some places so that would not really solve the problem. You don't need a circular bus route just routes for cars. TH ecanals are the natural limits of the city which is effectively an Island.

Road tax will eventually be paid by use of roads. THe technolgy exists now just not great for people's civil rights.

murphaph · 08-12-2005, 14:11

It's all very depressing really isn't it. Imagine if we hadn't fcuked the whole thing up by lettin the gombeens in to run the show (fcukin deValera the c*nt didn't even want the ESB to be set up, he loved the whole rural thing, dancin at the crossroads and all that b0ll0x, hated the cities). Dublin and Cork might still have world class tram networks, recently upgraded with cash from the tiger to include longer trams and more grade separation.

Thomas that 50 million pax/annum is a staggering figure for the time. There's no doubt in mind that if the trams had been upgraded to single-deck european style articulated ones and so on that the city would have naturally densified around them. The population of the city of Dublin has hardly moved in a hundred years-all the population growth has been on the periphary on the greenfield sites. Ah it's more depressing the more I think of it-could have had nice 6/7 storey apartment lined streets instead of the cottages with massive back gardens in Dumcondra.

PandaMania · 08-12-2005, 15:39

You think that is depressing Phillip, just been reading more of the book and get this. Dev forced the Dublin Trams to have their tickets and all printed materials in Irish and English and the cost of all the machines and bi-lingual printing nearly bankrupt the company. It's just unreal really.

Another thing, you know all them CargoTrams which they are using in cities such as Dresden and Zurich for carrying freight on tramlines. Well the DUTC were doing this starting in 1909 and it became a very profitable business for them. Dublin was light years ahead of the rest of Europe. They carried huge volumes of freight on the tram network at night, much to the annoyance of the rail compaines. Their advertising department was one of the best ad agencies in Ireland. They made as much from tram advertising as many of the national newspapers from print ads.

The Dublin Tram system was simply amazing, something all Irish people should be proud of and yet we know almost nothing about it.

I can't help but wonder if it was still around when Todd Andrews was the gaffer would it have survived. He almost brought CIE into profit when he made the rail network useful and would he have seen the logic of keeping the trams running as he was the man at the EBS who understood the potential of electric power and even offered CIE's predecessor, the GSR spare capacity to electrify the rail network for free and they said no (of course).

murphaph · 08-12-2005, 16:13

Yeah I remember reading that the Lucan tram carried oodles of freight. It doesn't surprise me at al to hear deV fcuked the DUTC et al over by making them bi-lingual (a legacy still plaguing Dublin Bus' timetables!).

We can but hope that as Luas expands it becomes something that people expect and no government will be able to ruin it like deV and Co.

That map was vey telling-the 1p flat fare boundary is a simple zonal fare structure that should be reintroduced immediately on Dublin Bus within a certain radius of the city.

Charles Darwin · 08-12-2005, 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by murphaph

That map was vey telling-the 1p flat fare boundary is a simple zonal fare structure that should be reintroduced immediately on Dublin Bus within a certain radius of the city.

Reintroduction of the 1p flat fare would be a great idea!

The old trams used to go over Ringsend bridge. I don't know if our modern trams would be able to make it.

PandaMania · 08-12-2005, 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by murphaph

It doesn't surprise me at al to hear deV fcuked the DUTC

You have to wonder if this was a vendetta. The DUTC continued to operate during the Easter Rising and was praised for doing so and having their system repaired and up and running while a lot of the city centre lay in ruins. The DUTC also had more medals for bravery awarded to it's employees than any other company in Ireland for their service in the First World War.

Is there any group or society devoted to the trams of Ireland? I would like to join if there is. This is a part of our industrial, economic and social heritage which has been buried for far too long.

murphaph · 08-12-2005, 19:07

Again, wouldn't surprise me, he was a small minded git and if he hadn't been such a weasel in avoiding the bullet we might have prospered as a nation a lot sooner. Anyways, here's a few sad links to think what might have been....

Cork Tram
Dublin & Blessington Steam Tram
Lucan Tram

....and that's only a fraction of what existed.

08-12-2005, 13:57	#23
PandaMania Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 78 Adverts \| Friends	Looking at the map posted inspired me to get out my copy on the history of Dublin trams by M Cochrane. It is a facinating insight into were it all went wrong when it came to public transport in Dev's Holy Catholic Gaelic Ireland. In its final year of operation the Dublin trams were carrying 50 million passengers a year - let me repeat that again FIFTY MILLION PASSENGERS A YEAR. (the "vital" Western Rail Corridor which lasted 25 more years than the Dublin trams carried less than 50 passengers a week.) People at the time who protested against the tram closings on the grounds that the system was busy and not dependent on imported oil were potrayed as luddites and "scared of progess". The Dublin Trams electricial system was consider a marvel of engineering and their generating stations became international meccas for engineers from around the world who were in awe of the genius and brilliance. The Dublin Trams despite drivers being killed, continue to run under fire during the 1916 Easter Rising and while German bombs fell on the city in 1940. (compare that to the pussy boy DART drivers and their stress payments for hauling two extra carraiges!) When CIE was formed it was hoped that well run Dublin United Tramways would help educate the directors of the Great Southern Railway (who were mostly Fianna Fail political appointees from rural Ireland along with landed gentry types who knew more about fox hunting than urban living) in the hope that CIE would operate a well run public transport system. What happened was that the DUTC managers were isolated from decision making and the trams were instead subjected to the GSR incompetence rather than the railways being subjected to DUTC professionalism. One of the first acts of CIE was to levy a huge fare increase on the Dublin and Cork trams and Limerick city bus services in order to subsidies rural rail services (social justice eh?). Upgrade and maintainance on the Dublin Trams was slowly stopped to the point were a fully integrated tramway system which was the envy of the world, had no more importance within CIE as the rural branch lines west of the Shannon. I suggest that people who are interested in public transport in Ireland and have wondered why we have a third world system read Through Streets Broad and Narrow, you'll be amazed at a history most Irish people do not know about (yes but we all know about Peig Sayers don't we...). Although CIE did get better in time, the early years can be viewed as little more than settling scores on former rival rail companies of the GSR. It was not only Dublin commuters who were screwed. The Waterford and Tramore was a decent little (non GSR) commuter railway which CIE closed even though it made a profit from the day it opened to the day it closed. The West Cork lines (non GRS) although they were poorly used (still carried way more passengers than the WRC) for the most part, they also contained decent commuter traffic on some sections, CIE binned the whole lot). One of the more amusing parts of the book is that CIE always placed high value on PR and spin and used this tool to cover their ineptitude and poor customer service. Howya Barry! Last edited by PandaMania; 08-12-2005 at 14:06.

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08-12-2005, 14:11	#25
murphaph Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Berlin Posts: 11,780 Adverts \| Friends	It's all very depressing really isn't it. Imagine if we hadn't fcuked the whole thing up by lettin the gombeens in to run the show (fcukin deValera the c*nt didn't even want the ESB to be set up, he loved the whole rural thing, dancin at the crossroads and all that b0ll0x, hated the cities). Dublin and Cork might still have world class tram networks, recently upgraded with cash from the tiger to include longer trams and more grade separation. Thomas that 50 million pax/annum is a staggering figure for the time. There's no doubt in mind that if the trams had been upgraded to single-deck european style articulated ones and so on that the city would have naturally densified around them. The population of the city of Dublin has hardly moved in a hundred years-all the population growth has been on the periphary on the greenfield sites. Ah it's more depressing the more I think of it-could have had nice 6/7 storey apartment lined streets instead of the cottages with massive back gardens in Dumcondra.

08-12-2005, 15:39	#26
PandaMania Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 78 Adverts \| Friends	You think that is depressing Phillip, just been reading more of the book and get this. Dev forced the Dublin Trams to have their tickets and all printed materials in Irish and English and the cost of all the machines and bi-lingual printing nearly bankrupt the company. It's just unreal really. Another thing, you know all them CargoTrams which they are using in cities such as Dresden and Zurich for carrying freight on tramlines. Well the DUTC were doing this starting in 1909 and it became a very profitable business for them. Dublin was light years ahead of the rest of Europe. They carried huge volumes of freight on the tram network at night, much to the annoyance of the rail compaines. Their advertising department was one of the best ad agencies in Ireland. They made as much from tram advertising as many of the national newspapers from print ads. The Dublin Tram system was simply amazing, something all Irish people should be proud of and yet we know almost nothing about it. I can't help but wonder if it was still around when Todd Andrews was the gaffer would it have survived. He almost brought CIE into profit when he made the rail network useful and would he have seen the logic of keeping the trams running as he was the man at the EBS who understood the potential of electric power and even offered CIE's predecessor, the GSR spare capacity to electrify the rail network for free and they said no (of course).

08-12-2005, 16:13	#27
murphaph Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Berlin Posts: 11,780 Adverts \| Friends	Yeah I remember reading that the Lucan tram carried oodles of freight. It doesn't surprise me at al to hear deV fcuked the DUTC et al over by making them bi-lingual (a legacy still plaguing Dublin Bus' timetables!). We can but hope that as Luas expands it becomes something that people expect and no government will be able to ruin it like deV and Co. That map was vey telling-the 1p flat fare boundary is a simple zonal fare structure that should be reintroduced immediately on Dublin Bus within a certain radius of the city.

08-12-2005, 19:07	#30
murphaph Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Berlin Posts: 11,780 Adverts \| Friends	Again, wouldn't surprise me, he was a small minded git and if he hadn't been such a weasel in avoiding the bullet we might have prospered as a nation a lot sooner. Anyways, here's a few sad links to think what might have been.... Cork Tram Dublin & Blessington Steam Tram Lucan Tram ....and that's only a fraction of what existed.