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31-12-2004, 12:10   #76
blondie83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coupe
This kind of narrow minded predjudice and self congratulation is precisely the reason I chose KM over your traditional MA as it dispenses with the bullsh1t which is clearly part and parcel of protecting the pyjamas and grading nonsense.
Emmm...Colm doesn't do a TMA, he studies Mixed martial Arts, and instructs in Brazilian Jujutsu. I'd imagine he has even less of an interest in the "protecting the pyjamas and grading nonense" then yourself.
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31-12-2004, 12:14   #77
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Coupe,

I didn't attack Patrick Comiskey, and I said we shouldn't reduce this thread to personal attacks. I was responding to the subject of instructors and their physiques.

As for deveoping self defence ability in 12 hours I cannot conceive of a way of developing skill in all three ranges that would allow you to competently defend yourself. I also understand just how difficult it is to demonstrate something on a 2 minute video clip but the techniques demonstrated were not realistic. If someone who has done KM would like to show that mount escape on me or someone I know who is capable on the ground I'd like to see it. This is not a challenge, I simply won't except anything with regards to ma without trying it firsthand.

Peace Out,
Colm
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31-12-2004, 12:28   #78
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Coupe,

1) Look up and form an understanding of what MMA or vale tudo is and then form opinions on why Colm is critical of KM (as I am).

2) Look at the prevalence of the mounted position in MMA and consider that an MMA coach would likely teach escapes from that position and therefore be well able to evaluate the escapes of others! The mount escape shown on that TV3 show was rubbish. It wouldnt work. It would be obvious to you if you had ever been mounted and had someone punch you in the face repeatedly. Try that sh1t by all means but it will likely have you knocked out! MMA people (and BJJ people) have a good understanding of what its like to be mounted and what its like to escape mount. They know what works!

3) MMA people do quite a bit of training every week especially lots of conditioning! What are your 16 hours consisting of?

Cheers,

Colum
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31-12-2004, 13:23   #79
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belts?? we dont need no steeeeenking belts!!

too much telly over de crimbo


So what is it about KM that makes it so different from a martial art? From viewing that clip it looked just like what you're taught in jujutsu/hapkido etc class, and it was poor IMO. the only time they inserted some motion into the demo (ie realism) the girl went flying on her snot, but that was meant to happen of course .

Until i saw that clip i taught this KM stuff had some merit on what i'd read but looking at that the words "money" and "old rope" spring to mind
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31-12-2004, 13:36   #80
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Give me 12 weeks with a student drilling them in good hard basics along with situational awareness and some scenario based training and I'm pretty happy they would go away thinking the same way
They would,as I said previously, feel capable of defending themselves.Hopefully they would have the sense to run like fook after 12 two hour classes! Hell, a weekend seminar could make people with no previous training feel they'd been shown the be all and end all of MA/Self Defense.
Except the first time they get attacked and freeze solid,then proceed to be beaten and robbed, they will realise that something was very wrong.
This may mean that what they were shown was rubbish.
It was good information but presented and trained badly.
That the student listened to all this talk of awareness and being switched on,and proceeded to get bombed drunk and wander around some rough area looking for a bit of aggro.
I'm not saying 12 weeks of training is useless, anything is better then nothing.But to say a 12 week course will set you up for good,without drilling and working the techniques every week in a realistic manner,is wishful thinking at best.
I can see it appealing to people looking for a quick fix and if it encourages them to taking up another combat sport to continue their training then fair play.If you don't like Pyjamas or bull why not go to a good boxing gym?It's been well tested in the ring at full contact and ha no bowing etc.
But, if a person does this course and then decides they need never practice or train in any way again,as they have these killer moves as an instinctive reponse........
The clip we saw was what Mr. Comiskey put up on his own website to promote what he teachs.I can only judge on what I have seen of his work.
It would not encourage me to pay for further instruction from him.If he were to put up a more realistic training clip,maybe taken from his Bulletman class?
And if Coupe or 2Lazy would like to get in touch with Mr. Comiskey I'm sure we'd all like to discuss this with him on the Forum, and to learn more about his background and experience in MA and KM.
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31-12-2004, 18:42   #81
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Bambi,

It occured to me just there I didn't reply to your post about "dirty" tactics. We exclue those dirty tactics because it's just not fun to train them, would be my first answer.

When a beginner comes to train with us, I don't tell them "the rules". I'll give them an objective for that drill, eg 'Escape that guy pinning you in any way you can'. After a while they begin to understand how the body moves and works.

Someone who can control your body, and learning how to control the body (hips and centreline) can be trained safely day in day out, really has no problem when someone tries "dirty" tactics. I've had people try to poke me in the eye, knee me in the crotch, and try to bite me while training. It has never been a problem for me. Depending on the individual and the intent behind it I've merely carried on to control/take down/submit them or I've slapped them in the face for their troubles.

Does this explain it better?
Colm
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04-01-2005, 12:44   #82
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Some of you guys are serious into bashing KM on here.

I am doing KM over 18 months now ( a few times a week). Before that I have done kickboxing for many years, and TKD for a few years, along with some kung fu, all in ireland and abroad. I still do a bit of kickboxing to keep sharp, though I would say KM is my main style now, as I am only interested in street self defense too.

I think MMA is brilliant as a style. though I tend to think it may appeal to the very serious and fit type of martial arts person. Sure I have fought full contact kickboxing in the ring, but to be honest these days I would not fancy getting into a cage fight!!!!

I have to say as an experienced martial artist both traditional and modern training systems, I still think KM is one of the better street orientated systems out there (along with MMA and other reality based systems that teach similar things). and I know what works in the street as I have (unfortunanely) put my money where my mouth is on that front a few times in my life time.

As for the 12 week KM course, this is excellent for people who have no interest in full time martial trainig, to get a handful of simple techniques drilled into them, that may help if the get attacked, and there has been plenty of situations where students of this course have saved themselves.

As for Patrick Cumiskey, as well as been a fully qualified KM instructor, he also has many years training behind him in both karate and other styles. and I can tell you he does not teach rubbish...no way.

as for us, we all have our opinions of what works and does not. however remember what Joe Lewis said the great american martial artist, on of thew early full contact champs ever, a pioneer in martial arts, trained with bruce lee and many others. " I do not believe in styles, I believe in punches and kicks!"
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04-01-2005, 13:06   #83
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Quote:
I think MMA is brilliant as a style. though I tend to think it may appeal to the very serious and fit type of martial arts person. Sure I have fought full contact kickboxing in the ring, but to be honest these days I would not fancy getting into a cage fight!!!!
9 out of 10 people who train dont compete. MMA isnt really a style also. Its similar to Joe Lewis's view in that its just punching kicking and grappling. MMA is simply what works. Different MMA gyms approach it differently but the over-riding principle is that you have to be able to fight wherever the fight goes.

We were critical of the mount escapes because from our MMA experience they simply wouldnt work especially when a smaller person tries to use them against full resistance.
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04-01-2005, 16:01   #84
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I have only real learned ground fighting the past 2 years, so I am not an expert at all. I am 12 stone and fairly lean, I found myself I can get much bigger stronger guys off me, pinning me full blast doing the KM escapes. I would make sure the guy is going to come off me my hook or my crook if its the last thing I do!!!!. so could be the "attitude!" i adopt that helps me wprk the escapes.

actually I think those ground escapes taught as part of KM in Ireland, and not from KM, but are from Jim Waegner in the USA who teaches reality fighting. there is a few extras added in on top of the KM training.

however there will always be someone out there that could pin any of us and none of us regardless of "style" may not be able to escpae from, for many different reasons.

find what works individually, practice strong and hard, have keep the "attitude " on!

Cheers!

Last edited by Millionaire; 04-01-2005 at 16:17.
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07-01-2005, 08:39   #85
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Lads,
Rightly or wrongly I thought ,in the interests of fairness,we should hear from Mr. Comiskey himself.I got on to his website and mailed him,letting him know we had a discussion ongoing and inviting him to join in and present his teaching or whatever.
I don't know if he will or not,but the offer has been made for him to come and at least have his say.
I know I have been somewhat sceptical of his style, but I'd prefer to not be talking about the guy behind his back so to speak anyway.
If I hear anything back from him or his site I'll keep ye posted
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07-01-2005, 09:11   #86
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Good man Musashi
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07-01-2005, 12:48   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musashi
Lads,
Rightly or wrongly I thought ,in the interests of fairness,we should hear from Mr. Comiskey himself.I got on to his website and mailed him,letting him know we had a discussion ongoing and inviting him to join in and present his teaching or whatever.
I don't know if he will or not,but the offer has been made for him to come and at least have his say.
I know I have been somewhat sceptical of his style, but I'd prefer to not be talking about the guy behind his back so to speak anyway.
If I hear anything back from him or his site I'll keep ye posted
Nice Work.

I'd like to clear up that we're not talking about Patrick Comiskey himself, rather the claims of KM.

Peace and Love Y'All,
Colm
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10-01-2005, 21:06   #88
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OK Lads, here is the mail I sent to KravMaga Ireland

"Sir,
Just to let you know,there is an ongoing discussion on Boards.ie,on
the self defense/martial arts forum regarding KM.Some students of Mr.
Cumiskey have commented there,but I would like to invite the man himself to
join in and share his experience with us. We are from all different styles
and backgrounds and have differing views as to how best to train ourselves
so this style has generated some debate. Any input would be welcomed.
Thank you for your time.
Musashi"
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10-01-2005, 21:10   #89
Musashi
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And this is the reply I received,in full as requested by Mr. Cumiskey.

"Dear Musashi

Thanks for you note and invite to your board discussion. I am currently in
Eastern Africa, providing Personal Security, Conflict Management and Self
Defense training to a number of aid agencies. Internet access here is poor
and infrequent.
I don't know who you are, (although I guess you're a fan of the book of five
rings) or your age, gender or background but there is no need for you to
call me Sir / or Mr. Cumiskey, but I do acknowledge your courtesy, Patrick
will do fine.
I have had had a look at your quite lively debate, but as I said my access
to the internet here is not so great. Also to be frank I am not one to
engage in (largely) Anonymous debate with players who do not identify
themselves, their affiliations or background.
I do not propose to the comments on the boards discussion point my point but
since you had the courtesy to inform/invite me I am delighted to share some
of my perspectives and motivations.
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10-01-2005, 21:10   #90
Musashi
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Firstly a little background my name is Patrick Cumiskey (with a "U")

I am 38 years of age and have trained in martial arts/combat for about 23
years (with a break here and there)

My primary background is Kenpo, in which I received a 2nd Degree Black belt,
I went on to train to 3rd degree but lost interested in belts and stripes

Over the years I have trained in many martial arts systems some very good,
others doubtful (to me anyway)

Styles I have trained in include Tae Kwon Do, boxing, ninjitsu, akido, wing
chun, kung fu plus a lot of free style kickboxing my training has taken
place in Ireland, the US and Britain.

On of the highlights of my time in Britain were stints at the Bob Breen's
Jeet Kune Do academy in London.


A few years ago I decided to sell out of a company I had setup, got tired of
working behind a desk !. After a break thinking about what to do with the
rest of my life I decided that I wanted to teach every day normal people
very quickly and efficiently how to protect themselves, when I looked inside
honestly, I found that I didn't know how to do that! I knew how to teach
them Karate!

In addition having worked for many years as a barman while studying,
witnessing and being involved in preventing / stopping many physical
situations I had doubts about the effectiveness of much of my training, I
also found that it didn't deal with the whole situation , e.g. pre-incident
indicators, verbal abuse/de-escalation, space management , fear/adrenalin
management etc, etc instead for me the focus seemed to be ritualised
combat.
In addition, I had significant concerns with the fact many people were
drawn into traditional martial arts training with the promise of being
taught effective self defence when fact these martial arts require a number
years of training a number of times a week to gain a level of proficiency
and the usefulness is questionable. They sign up buy the Gi, kimona,
slippers, whatever, train for 2-4 months and leave with nothing.
Please note this is not a judgement. Only my opinion from my years of
observation and teaching these classes, this view has been validated for my
in recent years as I have met more and more of these people through my
current courses.
So I set a challenge to myself which was to find a way to in 24 hours teach
everyday normal people skills that would allow the to defend themselves
against street assault,
And this I believe leads to a very important question "why do you train",
that's the question that needs to be answered, is it for sport, fitness,
spiritual enlightenment or real world self defense . (I'm sure there are
more reasons) and who are you expecting to fight. It appear to me hat in
most martial art classes train to fight somebody of your own style, shotokan
c shotokan, tkd v tkd, aikido v aikido. Etc

When the reality of the situation is if you are going to be assaulted on the
street you will be assaulted by one or more thugs - muggers, junkies,
bouncers or just plain mean guys who want to harm you . They are very
unlikely to be martial artists ( and less likely to of the same style as
you) and even if they are, they had better have trained for a number of
years to be any good! Also, in the many situations I have witnessed I have
never seen a straight reverse, punch, a front lunge or a spinning reverse
kick thrown ( the moves you spent hour practicing , using and defending
against in many martial arts classes), I have seen a sword and a Kukri
though (so maybe Ninjitsu , is the one that has it!)
Most likely you will see a hay maker, grab and punch, head butt or more than
likely the lunge and grab resulting in chaotic waltz in the street

So I decided that I would focus on teaching people how to deal with real
world threats so to this I had to get equipped ! and began my search.

Eventually I found Krav Maga , I am not going to discuss KM in detail simply
because there is a ton of information and debate about it on the web, all
the major magazines have covered and there a lots and lots of reviews and
comments. I will say it was the toughest thing I have ever done BUT the most
rewarding! When I started training in KM it just made so much sense, my
peers ranged from 4th dan tkd black belts, kung fu black sashes, royal
marines, riot squad operatives, and they alls felt pretty much the same.
The training was hard (conducted by Eyal Yanilov the Israeli chief
instructor) but we were treated with respect and like adults, no sensei,
sifu or grand master , it was simply Eyal.
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