[Dancing duck]

Originally posted by Batbat
Thats an interesting article, one point is thay find it strange that most irish people hate their own language, i dont find it strange at all, when you consider how it was taught in school, that book Peig is a disgrace

And when did you read that book? 5th or 6th year after already having done 12 years of the language with no mention of the Blasket Islands?

[Yoda]

Originally posted by Batbat
Thats an interesting article, one point is thay find it strange that most irish people hate their own language, i dont find it strange at all, when you consider how it was taught in school, that book Peig is a disgrace

"I hated the way the language was taught me in school. I hated Peig's book. So I hate the language, even though none of this is the language's fault, and I'm too stubborn and inflexible to say, "Hey, I don't have to hate the language or tell people how much I hate it."

Get over it already.

[bonkey]

Originally posted by tricky D
The Irish-only signs policy in some Gaeltacht areas means fewer ppl can find their way around.

Really? The only people I can see it causing a problem for are what Yoda has already described as English-speaking monoglots.

Unsurprisingly, most Europeans are well-versed in travelling around countries where they don't speak much/any of the local lingo. Some European nations (like Switzerland, where I live) will have signs in different languages depending on what part of the nation you are currently in.

In my experience, the only people who would have a problem even considering that (say) La Neuville might be called something else in the German-speaking areas (Neuenburg) and so on are the "we only speak english" crew.

So call me hard-hearted, but I honestly don't see Irish signposts as a problem except for English-only speakers...and lets fdace it....the language of the signage is likely to be the least problem they face in the Gaeltacht.

If ppl can't find their way around the area,

...then they haven't figured out how to buy maps in the language of the area they're visiting, or that they need to learn the local name for the major places.

The Swiss-Germans know Geneva as Genf. Thats how they signpost it too. You think they're wrong, seeing as they haven't put the Romansch, French and Italian words up there on every sign too???

it acts as a disincentive to visit,

I don't believe so. I think the problem you're seeing is one that is something most of the population of Europe live with on a regular basis and don't spare a second thought to.

The only people who have a problem with it are those who just aren't used to dealing with more than one language and realising that there is a bit of work associated with it. Personally, I'd rather see those people exposed to the problem so that they learn how to deal with it....

languages that don't communicate, die and get condemned to academic dungeons.

I can't think of a single language in history which has died because of a lack of communicative ability.

I can think of several which have been attempted (like Irish) to be destroyed to sever a cultural tie that a conquered people had with their free past.

I can think of several (well, pretty much all languages actually) which have "mutated" over time to reflect the changing cultural makeup of those who speak it.

I can think of languages which have died becauase the civilisation which spoke them died first (e.g. Latin) resulting in the resurgence of local tongues (albeit Latin-tinted..see previous point).

But I really think you're making up your reasoning here about "lack of communication".


jc

[ishmael whale]

Originally posted by bonkey
So call me hard-hearted, but I honestly don't see Irish signposts as a problem except for English-only speakers...and lets fdace it....the language of the signage is likely to be the least problem they face in the Gaeltacht.

English-only speakers don't seem to have any particular problem in the Gaeltacht, as they share that language with most of the inhabitants. However, the point about placenames has to do with the imposition of redundant or manufactured Gaelic names where other names are actually the ones in daily use. It seems to be another daft imposition coming from the Official Language Act.

This issue has already attracted an amount of comment on a thread in the Commuting/Transport area.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irel...?view=Eircomnet
quote:

Placenames plan is 'ridiculous' - tourism chief
From:ireland.com
Thursday, 1st July, 2004

The Chairman of the North West Tourism Board has described as "absolutely ridiculous" the new Placenames Order (Gaeltacht Districts) 2004.

The draft order published today by the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Mr O'Cuiv, means the English version of placenames in Gaeltacht areas will no longer have legal standing.

The order will no longer permit the use of the English version of placenames in the Acts of the Oireachtas, in statutory instruments, on road and street signage or on Ordnance Survey maps.

Speaking on RTÉ Radio this morning, Councillor Sean McEniff (FF), Chairman of North West Tourism, said that in many cases "the Irish names bear no resemblance to the English versions".

He claimed the new order will result in confusion for tourists from across the border as well as England and America.

"People will not know where they are going because, after all ,when they get out their maps they are in English," said Mr McEniff.

However, Mr O'Cuiv today defended the draft order, saying he didn't understand the issues raised by Mr Eniff . "The placenames have been in Irish in Gaeltacht areas since the 1970s when Bobby Molloy made the order," Mr O'Cuiv said.

"The fact was that none of them were official in the Irish language, only in English," he said. "What the new order does is reverse that in Gaeltacht areas, making the Irish form the official one in these areas," Mr O'Cuiv added.

Mr O'Cuiv pointed out that Ordnance Survey maps show both English and Irish versions of placenames.

About 2,119 placenames of villages and towns in the country's Gaeltacht areas are listed in the draft order, which was published this morning .

"The names have been recommended by the Placenames Commission, and concern the places' history, spelling etc . . . " said Mr O'Cuiv.

"Rather than sign the order, we've given a period of consultation for people of the Gaeltacht to make submissions. Most of them will not be contentious," he added.

The draft list of the Gaeltacht placenames is available on the Department website at www.pobail.ie

[tricky D]

So call me hard-hearted, but I honestly don't see Irish signposts as a problem except for English-only speakers...and lets fdace it....the language of the signage is likely to be the least problem they face in the Gaeltacht.

...then they haven't figured out how to buy maps in the language of the area they're visiting, or that they need to learn the local name for the major places.

You've been missing the recent news items over here where many visitors clearly stated that it is an impediment to getting around. Some of my American and European friends agree. Also many maps sold here simply don't have the Irish names or sometimes if they do, they don't always match the direction signs. To expect all of them to know the implications of this is unrealisitic, especially when there aren't good map sellers near every other crossroad.

But I really think you're making up your reasoning here about "lack of communication".

Perhaps I needed to be more precise and said 'used for regular communication'. Its pretty obvious that a language which gets no use, dies, whether that lack of use is due to cultural progress or other political factors or something else is a separate matter.

The bigger picture wrt communication, is how does making Irish an official language, promote Irish in general and for who? If nobody reads or speaks the Eurospeak in Irish except a small pretty much closed shop of bureaucrats in Europe, where's the benefit?

[Yoda]

A bigger problem is that there is really inadequate signage throughout the country.

Everyone manages with Dún Laoghaire (not Queenstown of Dunleary) and Co. Laois.

Why we perpetuate the anglicized names like Ballynastangford (= Baile na Stanfard) and Mullaghanattin (= Mullach an Aitinn) is beyond me.

Obviously where Sutton = Cill Fhionntain it makes sense to keep both names, because they are different in the two languages. But the anglicized spellings are anachronistic (everyone has done Irish in school) and could easily be done away with.

[ishmael whale]

Originally posted by Yoda
Why we perpetuate the anglicized names like Ballynastangford (= Baile na Stanfard) and Mullaghanattin (= Mullach an Aitinn) is beyond me.

Apologies if I’m breaking any rules on duplicating posts, but I think this one by Mackerski in the commuting/transport thread below is particularly relevant and deserves a look.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...0&pagenumber=1

This "let's revert to the traditional placename" approach is not without its snags. You see hints of it on the new Luas line, where two stops that I can think of (Cowper and Charlemont) were clearly considered not worth translating, presumably because of a lack of established Irish names. This seems very fair - just as I would be slow to insist on an Anglicised name for a place where everybody speaks Irish. Still, presumably to satisfy the rules on dual language signage, the signs at both of the Luas stops named above dutifully state the station name twice.

Let's leave aside attempted placename theft (Newbridge, Bagenalstown, Kells, even Dunleary if spelling purges count). Apart for this, the best example of name retrofitting I know of is Blanchardstown, Co. Dublin (as we once liked to call it). Not long after the foundation of the state, as the official bodies started looking to resurrect the old and sometimes neglected Irish language placenames, the name "Baile Luindín" came to be recorded for Blanchardstown. This was after quite a bit of research - finding an Irish name for a historically small place in one of the first parts of Ireland to lose the language proved pretty tough. The first historical reference to the village is a Latin one, to "Villa Blanchard", and Blanchard doesn't feel like a traditional Irish name. In any case, they got Baile Luindín out of an old woman who recalled it as the name of one of the coach stops on the way out of Dublin on the road to Navan. So signs were erected and the case closed.

During the sixties, another placename researcher had a fresh look, and discredited the name. He reckoned that the woman was thinking of Baile Bhluindín (Blundellstown, near the Hill of Tara), and went on to suggest that, in the absence of an established Irish name, the closest you could probably come was "Baile Blanchardstown". This was presumably deemed not Irish enough, and the place has been known as Baile Bhlainséir ever since. Whoever Mr. Blanchard was, his soul will no doubt receive much comfort from the posthumous gift of a name as Gaelige. An old cast-iron finger sign pointing to Baile Luindín survived into the 90s near St. Margarets.

This has been a long-winded way of suggesting that places should, by and large, be called what people call them, and not have names invented for them or thrust upon them just because one language is suddenly deemed more desirable than another. This means that sometimes it's reasonable to stick with an English-only name (as in Blanchardstown), other times an Irish-only one (Rosmuck probably offers no real benefit over Ros Muc, but does anybody really care?). I'd be as slow to send the language police out over a well-known name like Dingle (after all, München doesn't mind being Munich or Monaco).

[Paladin]

Whilst the signposts changing probably really isnt going to cause huge problems, the converse is true that it isnt going to cause any real gains. Why bother? More money wasted.

A bigger problem is that there is really inadequate signage throughout the country.

I second that.

Funnily enough yodo Im not a monoglot though not very fluent in other languages. I can speak a little (not near fluent) French, Italian and Irish to an extent. Was actually pretty good at Irish when I was about 11 or 12 but since gave up on it and my knowledge of it is pathetic now. My late uncle Barra ó Donnabháin was actually one of the biggest promoters of the Irish language. Found loads of google links about him. e.g http://www.beo.ie/2003-09/michealdem...asp?print=true
Needless to say his enthusiasm did not rub off on me. I am plodding away at italian but will have to wait till I go to italy for a prolonged spell before I get good at it (want to live\retire there).

Anyway, thats beside the point. Nobody has (or imo can) answer my question about why we should have national pride and preserve the language. Actually its useful to talk in irish in front of foreigners and confuse them. I conceed

[Yoda]

Níl sé ródhéanach chun do chuid Ghaeilge a fheabhsú, a Phaladin. Bheadh d'uncail an-sásta leis....

[pork99]

It's interesting that some of the most enthusiastic supporters of compulsion in the revival of Gaelic are foreigners, Yoda, the Dutch guy in the Radio Netherlands link, the English woman I once worked with who was the only person I ever heard using Gaelic at work.

This is because they chose to learn it out of personal interest and passion. Gaelic for them does not have the negative connotations it has for many (most?) Irish people. The negative impression you get from having it literally beaten (for older people) into you by extreme nationalistic, crypto-fascist, pederastic priests. I'm one of the "Peig" generation. My experience of Gaelic in school has caused me to feel physically ill whenever I hear it spoken. I'm not joking. That's a pity. There is no such thing as useless knowledge and learning a second language should make it easier to learn more languages.

I'm afraid that I consider English to be my native language. Part of the problem with Gaelic language teaching in this country is the pretence that Gaelic is everyone's native language but we are simply choosing to ingnore it. I never heard Gaelic spoken (apart from radio & TV) until I went to school. By definition your native language is the one spoken in the family you are born into. The fact is that for me that language was English. I would love to have been born into a bi- or tri- lingual family but that's just the reality. And yet Gealic was introduced as a language I already knew, as though I had some sort of Gaelic language gene that merely needed to be "switched on" - a bad start.

I have no problem with Gaelic being revived and preserved. I'm aware that it is one of the last survivors of a family of languages were once spoken across much of Europe. On that ground alone it should be preserved. Unfortunately in this country we have a tendency to prefer to do things the lazy stupid easy way. With Gaelic the lazy stupid approach is to make it compulsory for education and state jobs. The hard but smart approach is to encourage it's use in commerce and culture, to create an environment where that people want to be involved with that. That's the sort of thing which would catch my interest anyway.

I think it's interesting to look at the life and career of the writer Flann O'Brien. He grew up as a native Gaelic speaker and wrote his first books in Gaelic. However he bacame disillusioned with it and later in his life he gave up on Gaelic and worked exclusively in English. Anthony Cronin's biography of Flann O'Brien, "No Laughing Matter", descibes the situation

The first Free State Government had made Irish a compulsory subject for the school leaving certificate and it became necessary to have some knowledge of it in order to obtain an official position of any kind. Strangely enough, from that moment on the fervent enthusiasm of the first generation of language enthusiasts began to give way to widespread cynicism and apathy. The Irish people do not take kindly to compulsion and have a keen eye for all sorts of venality and jobbery.

So you have to ask yourself, which is the healthier situation for Gaelic; one were people learn it by rote in a mechanical manner to cram for exams and job advancement? Or one were an artist of Flann O'Brien's genius feels encouraged and compelled to work in it?

This country's attempts to revive Gaelic favoured quantity over quality and sadly ended up with neither.

[Yoda]

I'm not a foreigner. I'm a naturalized immigrant.

English is my native language too. But I guess I'm doing one of those things you think makes Irish interesting. Typesetting books is part of commerce and culture.

There's hope in your message, though. Glad to see it.

[pork99]

Originally posted by Yoda
I'm not a foreigner. I'm a naturalized immigrant.

My mistake, apologies!

Originally posted by Yoda

English is my native language too. But I guess I'm doing one of those things you think makes Irish interesting. Typesetting books is part of commerce and culture.

There's hope in your message, though. Glad to see it.

Had a quick look at your site, admirable work! Yes exactly what I'm on about.

[Zaphod]

Originally posted by tricky D
You've been missing the recent news items over here where many visitors clearly stated that it is an impediment to getting around. Some of my American and European friends agree. Also many maps sold here simply don't have the Irish names or sometimes if they do, they don't always match the direction signs. To expect all of them to know the implications of this is unrealisitic, especially when there aren't good map sellers near every other crossroad.

It's perhaps worth reiterating:

The current situation in the Gaeltachtaí is that the signs are in Irish (eg Dún Chaoin) but the maps use the "official" English version (eg Dunquin). Hence the confusion of tourists on the news reports. Once the OLA is implemented, both signs and maps will be in Irish.