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12-06-2003, 12:28   #136
p2p
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I understand all the points about mathematics of the cap etc
but .....

How are netsource able to do it for €54 ex domain with no cap?

And why cant UTV do it for the same and make up the "loss" by making their telephone package mandatory ?
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12-06-2003, 12:46   #137
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Quote:
Originally posted by p2p
I understand all the points about mathematics of the cap etc
but .....

How are netsource able to do it for €54 ex domain with no cap?

And why cant UTV do it for the same and make up the "loss" by making their telephone package mandatory ?
DOH! Netsource are obviously making their profit from the domain part , ie most ppl will choose a dot com domain (which costs an average of £18 sterling for 2 years) whilst others won't even choose one.

carb.
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12-06-2003, 13:04   #138
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Quote:
Originally posted by p2p
How are netsource able to do it for €54 ex domain with no cap?
Also, there are quite a few who are saying that Netsource are not able to do it:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...hreadid=100161
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12-06-2003, 14:20   #139
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Re: tee hee

Quote:
Originally posted by shinzon
god i gotta laugh, i think as regards UTV a lot of you have rose coloured glasses and unfortunately wont see the problems until yere signed up for it, this is exactly the same type of responses that happpened when netsource came out, first praise and absolute adoration, then problems started and the backlash began so will say no more now and await the threads to start, and as for the cap itll be enforced cause the warez monkeys will abuse the service as always
I'd have to agree with alot of the above,
Only one thing, its a start
Even if it is Eircoms product repackaged and resold its still a start and its still competion and thats good to!

The more companys the more choice, and when it comes down to it if all these companys along with IOFFL get together and highlight all the problems then maybe, just maybe things will get better.
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12-06-2003, 14:44   #140
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Perhaps UTV would consider such a wireless option still in the future to complement their RADSL service in the more populated centres of the country?
We have looked at wireless and done feasibility on various aspects of it....but its very restrictive. Line of sight, weather conditions permitting, limited range etc etc. To cover an area like Dublin or the greater Belfast area you could be looking at 6-12 aerials. This area though is one that is changing rapidly and something we are keeping an eye on (tethered ballons, new non line of sight technologies etc.) The cost of rolling out broadband on a wireless basis is very expensive whilst only covering a limited % of the population. And of course once you have terminated your wireless connection atop a tall mountain/building, who are you going to pay to backhaul it to your POP via fibre....?

Quote:
Now all I have to do is sit patiently and wait 18+ months for Eircom to upgrade my local exchange (if they ever do).
Unless we roll out our own network (hugely expensive, 100's of millions of euros cost) we have to include Eircom in the equation in back hauling the line/data to us. Even Esat who have a fairly large network installed find it cheaper to wholesale the ADSL product from Eircom rather than roll out ADSL on their own (they do have their own ADSL network out there....but its expensive and business only I think). And because we all rely on Eircom, we will all have similar products with similar terms of service.

Someone had mentioned earlier in this thread that UTV were not an ISP, but partnered with one......don't know where that came from, but UTV Internet (formerly DNA Internet) has been an ISP since 1995

Contention ratios and caps I went into this in some detail in an earlier thread relating to some problems that NetSource/Eircom were having. It is absolutely unrealistic to expect a 1:1 contention ratio when surfing on the internet. If everybody with access to the net used it at the same time, it would crawl to a complete halt. The reason contention ratios work so well is that not everybody online is either doing the same thing or downloading all the time. But if a certian % of your users are always saturating their DSL line, then that group of people can have a detrimental effect on other users of the service. Now if a few % of your customer base can affect the quality of your entire service, surely it is just common sense to have something in your terms and conditions that allows an ISP to regulate their usage to the greater benefit of the majority of users?
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12-06-2003, 15:04   #141
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UTV- may you soar to great heights in the Irish market.

Which other ISP explains itself, and its own t&cs as clearly and openly as UTV.

Instead of criticizing what's not in their hands, let's use the energy to battle eircom's continuing abuse of its position in the market. Comreg, take note. Surely they realise that Eircom is dragging its heels in the matter.

Is Minister Ahern aware of this board?
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12-06-2003, 15:23   #142
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I'm no expert on this (as you'll see from my post) and i do understand that Eircom are expensive as ****...but im still wondering why in Europe they are cheap and have no limits.

Contention ratios are 48:1? Why dont you just put less people on the lines. Say max it out at 30 (or create another product with higher cost but less contention). Can't you just request from Eircom to only stick 30 people on this particular line as they pay more for their medium-heavy usage.

1: So you might have one product at 47.50 witha contention at 48:1 with 5 gig cap.

2: And another product with 24:1 (or sommet) for €80. (or whatever increase in price is needed to cover the costs for the medium-heavy users. Chuck on a 'fair play' agreement on it where you'll be contacted if you go overboard too often by too much.

3:A gamers one where you have a higher cap (but still one for all the updates etc) but where you attempt to guarantee low pings to places like Jolt.co.uk or wherever. Either by using more expensive routing or whatever. Then stick on a correct price for the better routing (if possible) and the slighlty higher cap. (if this worked, all gamers capable of getting it probably would as long as the price wasn't too high. Thats quite a large amount of ppl imo)

Wouldnt that work?i dont understand why it has to be 48:1. Eircom said so? Well just request less people put on each and pay for the extra ones for the people who want a better product.

Basically im asking for Tier'd products. if what im asking is outta the question please explain why. Would LLU the lines for the heavy users be better?

Seems fairly easy to me but i guess thats why im not in an ISP

Comments plz, or questions if you dont understand what im getting at.

Last edited by BKtje; 12-06-2003 at 15:43.
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12-06-2003, 16:07   #143
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I'm really trying to be polite in answering some of these points, but am in a bit of a hurry....so my answers may be a bit short
Quote:
Why dont you just put less people on the lines
Can't - Ericoms limit on their RADSL product. Other DSL flavours may have different ratios but are a lot more expensive - don't forget we are trying to push people towards broadband and hence need an affordable product.

Quote:
where you attempt to guarantee low pings to places like Jolt.co.uk or wherever. Either by using more expensive routing or whatever
Not feasible - not going to go into the full tech details of an ISP's routing, but pings, latency etc are perhaps beyond the scope of this broadband discussion.

Quote:
Eircom said so?
Yes - someone earlier in this thread posted a link to some Eircom pdf docs concerning the tech specs of their RADSL product - go read through those for a better understanding of the limitations in taking the RADSL service.


Quote:
Would LLU the lines for the heavy users be better?
Yes, but a lot more expensive - most of the heavy users in this thread (I'm assuming) are home users who do not want to increase their net usage costs.
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12-06-2003, 16:17   #144
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Thanks for reply Martin, appreciated.

Im still a bit confused over the Contention tho. I understand Eircom Set the ratios on them but surely not every one is gonna be full. Especially at the start. Isn't it possible to just only stick 30 on each so that the bandwidth would be shard between them.
Is it not feesable? physically possible or Eircom just being asses about it and refusing to put less people on it?
From your previous reply im assuming its the latter

Anyway, will apply. Doubt ill pass as i didnt pass Eircoms/Netsources RADSL but might as well try
If not ill continue with my plans for ADSL business package from Esat which somehow i can get even tho i failed RADSL.
Go figure
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12-06-2003, 21:48   #145
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Quote:
Isn't it possible to just only stick 30 on each so that the bandwidth would be shard between them.
I assume UTV etc don't buy RADSL connections in job lots of 48 at a time & so can't decide to just share out the capacity between a reduced number of subscribers.... or do they?
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12-06-2003, 22:16   #146
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Quote:
Originally posted by Martin-UTVi

Yes, but a lot more expensive - most of the heavy users in this thread (I'm assuming) are home users who do not want to increase their net usage costs. [/B]
I used to live in Reading before BB and I was on a microwave link with a company called Tele2. This is an excellent service and I got spoilt.

As you say, most heavy users are home users, and I am looking for a 24/7 connection, dialup, BB or whatever. The pc will be 24/7 but not me, I just want the option

Sean
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13-06-2003, 00:10   #147
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The thing about contentions that I don't understand is related to the DSLAMS in the exchange. Is it a case of Eircom installing a single Dslam in the exchange and only adding another when its got its full complement of 48 users, so in my case on the bray exchange, the chances are that from the word go I'll probably have to share my connection with 48 others. There must be at least 48 early adopters in Bray (pop 30,000+) like me.

Or is it a case of say for example Eircom starting their Bray rollout with 10 Dslams and kind of splitting Bray into 10 sectors in which case of those 48 early adopters I might be lucky and be only one of 3 or 4 DSL users in my 'Sector' and thus not really have to share my connection for a long while until other people in my sector upgrade to DSL??
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13-06-2003, 01:03   #148
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May i just say :D

This really did make me smile

Quote:
We have looked at wireless and done feasibility on various aspects of it....but its very restrictive. Line of sight, weather conditions permitting, limited range etc etc. To cover an area like Dublin or the greater Belfast area you could be looking at 6-12 aerials. This area though is one that is changing rapidly and something we are keeping an eye on (tethered ballons, new non line of sight technologies etc.) The cost of rolling out broadband on a wireless basis is very expensive whilst only covering a limited % of the population. And of course once you have terminated your wireless connection atop a tall mountain/building, who are you going to pay to backhaul it to your POP via fibre....?
Im glad to see that UTV are looking in the right direction.Maybe the last bit is abit confusing as i would have thought that the much talked about ESB fiber figure of eight would have been the best choice ?.

I maybe wrong but (here we go again)the balloon soloution seems ideal you could locate the balloons close to ESB,s fiber network just about anywhere in the country acording to there map.The 80km radius these ballons have could cover just about all of ireland without much difficulty.Acording to skylincs map three balloons would cover all of ireland hell if they cost ten million € each it would be a fraction of the money the government has ear-mark for broadband rollout .

As regards the cost unfortunately i havent recieved a reply from the E-mails i sent to both the ESB and Skylinc so i have know idea how much it would cost for the ballons and the fiber backhaul.I know your a busy man martin but maybe you could give us a breakdown of cost for this kind of system like the one you did for your new broadband costings .

Quote:
This new service adds significant value across all the supply chain, from end-user subscribers who will get fibre speed services at DSL pricing to network operators who will achieve massive network coverage at minimised cost and in reduced timescales.
Quote:
LIBRA - The Key Facts
Quote:
It works! Technical field trials throughout September 2002 exceeded all expectations Each LIBRA cell has a MASSIVE coverage of 2,000 sq miles (equivalent coverage of up to 2,000 traditional wireless base stations)87% of UK SME business locations will be accessible from only 18 LIBRA platforms Scaleable for up to 30,000 non-contending subscribers per super-cell Fast 2-way service - just like more expensive fibre options
No requirement for a separate uplink such as modem, ISDN or leased line
Service is fully available whether you live in a town or in the most remote cottage in the country
Network roll out achieved for 10% of equivalent ground station costs
End user rates targeted as 'Fibre rate service at DSL prices'
Individual customer service rates from 1MB/s -10MB/s
Mounted on an elevated platform. A proven technology with over 30 years of operation
Regulatory approvals already granted for trials

for more read em and weep Skylinc

Last edited by Stonemason; 13-06-2003 at 01:31.
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13-06-2003, 09:29   #149
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devious plan #334

Run the national Digital Terrestrial TV system off the same 9 balloons while ye are at it lads.

M
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13-06-2003, 09:40   #150
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Quote:
I assume UTV etc don't buy RADSL connections in job lots of 48 at a time & so can't decide to just share out the capacity between a reduced number of subscribers
No.

Quote:
Is it a case of Eircom installing a single Dslam in the exchange and only adding another when its got its full complement of 48 users, so in my case on the bray exchange, the chances are that from the word go I'll probably have to share my connection with 48 others
No, its to do with the backhaul to the ISP. For every 2meg backhaul, Eircom will route a maximum of 192 virtual paths/routes/users back to the ISP, therefore the contention ratio is 48:1.

Quote:
know your a busy man martin but maybe you could give us a breakdown of cost for this kind of system
Haven't looked into it in that kind of detail.....but I think initially it was being proposed as a business BB service at approx €100 per month. This I picked up reading between the lines of the various releases at the time. It was in no way being suggested that it would initially service a residential market
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