BUDGET 2012

Oh_Noes · 15-11-2011 4:13pm

LiamN wrote: »

Ireland's like Springfield when they hosted the Radioactive Man movie.

The "leaving town tax" for exiting emigrants would certainly raise a few bob.

It should be interesting to see how they approach cigarettes. Most of the smokers I know have more or less abandoned buying them legitimately, opting for the black market because there's a saving of around 50% to be made. I think they've already passed the point of diminishing returns in regard to that, it might be the case that raising tobacco taxes results in a loss of money.

I can also imagine that if they push taxes up more and set a minimum price for drink, we'll see a lot more in the way of imaginative ways to get drink. Whether it's going up north, home brewing etc.

It is surprising to see so much talk of welfare and rent allowances and the likes when all they're trying to save there is 700 million out of an overall adjustment of 4 billion.

starbelgrade · 15-11-2011 4:15pm

I've no problem at all with the government raising the tax take on alcohol. It's a luxury item & should be taxed accordingly.

However, I do have an issue with them interfering with the pricing of goods & services in a free market. There is nothing to prove that below cost selling is of any detriment to the public and to try & introduce a minimum price for alcohol (or any other type of goods) requires monitoring and intervention that would be disproportionate to the adverse effects they were designed to remedy.

Biggins · 15-11-2011 4:20pm

starbelgrade wrote: »

...I do have an issue with them interfering with the pricing of goods & services in a free market. There is nothing to prove that below cost selling is of any detriment to the public and to try & introduce a minimum price for alcohol (or any other type of goods) requires monitoring and intervention that would be disproportionate to the adverse effects they were designed to remedy.

The supermarket multi-nationals have already given notice to the Irish government that they will fight such a move in the European courts under EU competition rules and regulations.
If the government was to eventually lose, one can only imagine the millions/billions they would have to payback in revenue earned and punitive damages to boot.

...But so far the government - and the VFI are playing deaf to that part!

...What will happen if the above does come to pass? We end up paying out more yet again!

ArmaniJeanss · 15-11-2011 4:22pm

A miminum price per unit of alcohol isn't a great way of raising money for the government, looking at it purely from the Budget pov.

All they'd actually get from it would be increased VAT, but the Excise portion would stay the same. As people would be able to afford to buy less units then the increase in Vat might not even cover the loss in Excise.

It's makes far more sense to increase the Excise by a small amount.

Rabidlamb · 15-11-2011 4:24pm

I presume Children's Allowance will get a hit considering Micks computer still can't talk to Margret's computer.
Rent allowance will get a big hit also.

Biggins · 15-11-2011 4:24pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

A miminum price per unit of alcohol isn't a great way of raising money for the government, looking at it purely from the Budget pov.

All they'd actually get from it would be increased VAT, but the Excise portion would stay the same. As people would be able to afford to buy less units then the increase in Vat might not even cover the loss in Excise.

It's makes far more sense to increase the Excise by a small amount.

They would introduce the price increase as a tax/levy.
The 'difference' of a new minimum price being the extra the government might also lay claim to.

Amirani · 15-11-2011 4:31pm

irishgeo wrote: »

i expect that DIRT tax ill go up, thats tax on any interest you make on savings.

This would make a lot of sense, people are saving too much.

ArmaniJeanss · 15-11-2011 4:33pm

Biggins wrote: »

They would introduce the price increase as a tax/levy.
The 'difference' of a new minimum price being the extra the government might also lay claim to.

Or, in other words, increase the Excise Duty as I said.

Biggins · 15-11-2011 4:36pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Or, in other words, increase the Excise Duty as I said.

If just the duty was increased, those already over the set minimum price - with their already higher prices - would just be hit yet again and they would claim discrimination and/or "why are we being just walloped more again?"

Its all speculative at the mo IF it will come at Budget time - but it looks like its coming sooner or later.
...So will a European court case then, if so!

ArmaniJeanss · 15-11-2011 4:44pm

Biggins wrote: »

If just the duty was increased, those already over the set minimum price - with their already higher prices - would just be hit yet again and they would claim discrimination and/or "why are we being just walloped more again?"

Its all speculative at the mo IF it will come at Budget time - but it looks like its coming sooner or later.
...So will a European court case then, if so!

What you are suggesting makes no sense.
If they set a miniumum of say €1.50 a can they would have no claim on the 'extra' - the seller of Dutch Gold (currently €1) would just state the 'to shelf' costs are now €1.30 or whatever so the governernment is reduced to just gaining the extra VAT.

A mimimum price just doesn't work as a revenue generator (as a health thing yes).
Excise duty (which effectively sets a minimum but gains revenue from those products already priced over the minimum) is the only way from a budgetary viewpoint.

Stiffler2 · 15-11-2011 4:52pm

Not liking the look of this thread so far. Personally I would prefer a flat rate charge for the water as opposed to a metre so I wouldn't have to stress / worry about my water consumption.

The 1 cent tax on txt messages is a good idea but the 60 million a year it would raise would be pie in the sky compared to the 173 bilion we owe. Although every savings add up I suppose.

Let's face it, no tax is good. People are already out of work & aren't earning as much yet everything costs the same as it used to.

I heard they weren't touching income tax ( this year )

If a water metre is to be installed they will certainly be fiddled with to make it look as if you aren't using as much water. This can be done with a small hole in the plastic front on the metre followed by a strong wire that jams into the mileage which stops the metre from turning, seen it in action before on someone's house for gas.

Their gas bill was something like 15 euro a month lol. So, so far we have:

Property Tax
Water Charges
10c on Smokes
Min price for Alchol
Possible Fuel Increases
1 cent tax on txt's
Increase on Import Tax

Anything else I've missed or anything else anyone can add ?

Biggins · 15-11-2011 5:04pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

What you are suggesting makes no sense.
If they set a miniumum of say €1.50 a can they would have no claim on the 'extra' - the seller of Dutch Gold (currently €1) would just state the 'to shelf' costs are now €1.30 or whatever so the governernment is reduced to just gaining the extra VAT.

To be honest the government (like the previous ones) seem to think they can do the heck they want - and if need be, re-write the laws of the land to facilitate this (even if it means making the public vote and re-vote again to get their way!).

What I'm saying is that with the proper legal 'abilities' to do so in place, if a can NOW costs 1.30 in a supermarket - they might say that if they are setting a minimum of 1.50, the 20c difference might be claimed as theirs under newly minted rules/laws that are further advantageous to them.
Don't put it past them to try every measure of gaining revenue!

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

A mimimum price just doesn't work as a revenue generator (as a health thing yes).
Excise duty (which effectively sets a minimum but gains revenue from those products already priced over the minimum) is the only way from a budgetary viewpoint.

Well thats certainly debatable.

They have already at times hinted/said certain taxes will not be changed.
So maybe new ways of gaining revenue are now coming down the pipeline on top of the new ones already hinted at and "soften the blow" PR 'leaks' have mentioned already?

binxeo · 15-11-2011 5:06pm

Jesus, all of this budget stuff tends to go right over my head unfortunately but I am really not liking what I am reading here. I am dreading this now really am. When are they issuing the budget anyway?

Amirani · 15-11-2011 5:07pm

binxeo wrote: »

Jesus, all of this budget stuff tends to go right over my head unfortunately but I am really not liking what I am reading here. I am dreading this now really am. When are they issuing the budget anyway?

Every December.

Biggins · 15-11-2011 5:09pm

binxeo wrote: »

Jesus, all of this budget stuff tends to go right over my head unfortunately but I am really not liking what I am reading here. I am dreading this now really am. When are they issuing the budget anyway?

6th December if memory serves me right.

Stinicker · 15-11-2011 5:12pm

niallsparky wrote: »

This would make a lot of sense, people are saving too much.

And this is why the economy is here is f**ked, I would abolish DIRT Tax if I were in charged. In Germany over the last decade while Ireland collectively was busy snorting cocaine of a hookers arse paid for with borrowed money, those frugal Germans were happily working away at the coal face making BMW's and robots that make BMW's to sell to gullible fools like us. The average german saves a very large portion of their salary to put away for their retirements and the important things in life. People in Ireland go out on a Friday night and get pissed in the pub and piss their salary away on stupid things.

People need to save more, Bertie Ahern was a total crook but the SSIA Savings scheme was a great thing FF did, however while it was great for frugal people like myself, in reality because of the way it was managed it resulted in throwing a can of petrol onto the property bonfire and essentially bought Fianna Fail the 2007 General Election with this collective bribe.

The SSIA scheme should be started again as part of a greater move to encourage savings, by promoting savings you are promoting better frugal policy and there are many good sides to this whole collapse in that it has woken people up to the true value of money and sorted the borrowed money rich kids out from the people who have money and actually worked for it.

I myself am afraid DIRT would raise also so I pooled my savings which were spread thin here and there before lodging them with PTSB at 10% over 26months, result I got a nice fat cheque and while I was going to use the interest cheque to buy a new car I have decided against and instead lodged it back in to a different account.

We need to reward people who are making the effort and no bailout those cretins who got sucked into the borrowed money mortgage ponzi scheme.

Means Of Escape · 15-11-2011 6:02pm

mathie wrote: »

talkinyite wrote: »

I'm not paying.

The Keyboard Warrior Tax?

The Smart Bollox Tax?

c_man · 15-11-2011 6:06pm

How about they cut grants to people to write books (merely because they're in Irish) which sell in the single figures? Cut all grants to Macnas slit-walkers and the likes?

No? Oh right, get rid of a load of cancer treatment wards so.

Amirani · 15-11-2011 9:21pm

Stinicker wrote: »

And this is why the economy is here is f**ked, I would abolish DIRT Tax if I were in charged. In Germany over the last decade while Ireland collectively was busy snorting cocaine of a hookers arse paid for with borrowed money, those frugal Germans were happily working away at the coal face making BMW's and robots that make BMW's to sell to gullible fools like us. The average german saves a very large portion of their salary to put away for their retirements and the important things in life. People in Ireland go out on a Friday night and get pissed in the pub and piss their salary away on stupid things.

People need to save more, Bertie Ahern was a total crook but the SSIA Savings scheme was a great thing FF did, however while it was great for frugal people like myself, in reality because of the way it was managed it resulted in throwing a can of petrol onto the property bonfire and essentially bought Fianna Fail the 2007 General Election with this collective bribe.

The SSIA scheme should be started again as part of a greater move to encourage savings, by promoting savings you are promoting better frugal policy and there are many good sides to this whole collapse in that it has woken people up to the true value of money and sorted the borrowed money rich kids out from the people who have money and actually worked for it.

I myself am afraid DIRT would raise also so I pooled my savings which were spread thin here and there before lodging them with PTSB at 10% over 26months, result I got a nice fat cheque and while I was going to use the interest cheque to buy a new car I have decided against and instead lodged it back in to a different account.

We need to reward people who are making the effort and no bailout those cretins who got sucked into the borrowed money mortgage ponzi scheme.

Reason our economy is so depressed at the moment is because of high savings. If you had any concept of economics you would know that Government should facilitate savings during times of expansion and promote spending during times of contraction. Ireland's savings rate is in double figures at the moment, far in excess of what would be considered normal in any country. Consequently there's a lack of growth.

Also the SSIA's were a crazy idea, completely inflated the boom when they matured.

Gummy Panda · 15-11-2011 9:32pm

Dónal wrote: »

Let the bears pay the bear tax.

I pay enough tax :mad:

Professey Chin · 15-11-2011 9:33pm

Gummy Panda wrote: »

I pay enough tax :mad:

Youre endangered. Im sure theres some sort of relief you have that can be abolished too

saa · 15-11-2011 9:37pm

c_man wrote: »

How about they cut grants to people to write books (merely because they're in Irish) which sell in the single figures? Cut all grants to Macnas slit-walkers and the likes?

No? Oh right, get rid of a load of cancer treatment wards so.

Jobs and saving lives can't be lobbed into the same thing,

I don't like cultural workers who can be self sufficient getting funding
The Art council budgets have been stripped away as much as is possible, so more people are just becoming redundant taking in some cases taking more tax payers money from staying on the dole rather than generating their own income between the very seldom grant or getting part of a shared income in an institution.

It wouldn't save the health system, better management would help some of the waste, although I see the government seems reluctant to do much that is seen as pittance, mind the pennies eh..

Ace2007 · 15-11-2011 9:58pm

talkinyite wrote: »

The water tax. I consider access to clean water a basic human right so they can go **** themselves.

you'll still have access, you'll just have to pay for it. Fair enough if you consider the amount of water that is wasted in this country and then on you human right issue, we probably waste more water than some third world countrys would see in a year.

Also introducing water meters, would create employement in that area

ulinbac · 15-11-2011 9:59pm

Stinicker wrote: »

And this is why the economy is here is f**ked, I would abolish DIRT Tax if I were in charged. In Germany over the last decade while Ireland collectively was busy snorting cocaine of a hookers arse paid for with borrowed money, those frugal Germans were happily working away at the coal face making BMW's and robots that make BMW's to sell to gullible fools like us. The average german saves a very large portion of their salary to put away for their retirements and the important things in life. People in Ireland go out on a Friday night and get pissed in the pub and piss their salary away on stupid things.

People need to save more, Bertie Ahern was a total crook but the SSIA Savings scheme was a great thing FF did, however while it was great for frugal people like myself, in reality because of the way it was managed it resulted in throwing a can of petrol onto the property bonfire and essentially bought Fianna Fail the 2007 General Election with this collective bribe.

The SSIA scheme should be started again as part of a greater move to encourage savings, by promoting savings you are promoting better frugal policy and there are many good sides to this whole collapse in that it has woken people up to the true value of money and sorted the borrowed money rich kids out from the people who have money and actually worked for it.

I myself am afraid DIRT would raise also so I pooled my savings which were spread thin here and there before lodging them with PTSB at 10% over 26months, result I got a nice fat cheque and while I was going to use the interest cheque to buy a new car I have decided against and instead lodged it back in to a different account.

We need to reward people who are making the effort and no bailout those cretins who got sucked into the borrowed money mortgage ponzi scheme.

Stinicker,

You need to pick up an economics book!. To add to niallsparkys point. Inflation is best kept at ~2-4%. So just say you get a savings scheme of 4% APR. DIRT is ~25% giving you a profit of €3, so at the end of the year your €100 in savings in worth €103 in line with inflation (something that was worth €100 is now worth €103, so your breaking even). Now the SSIA was a ridiculous idea, the government could have nearly wiped out our national debt with the amount it cost them.

Anyway, so they do similar scheme offering 20% again for 5 years. After the end of 5 years, everyone is 20% better off from saving, so they go to buy stuff. As many people want the same thing (car, furniture, renevations etc), they are willing to pay higher prices for a particular product to get it and inflations returns to the days after the SSIA ~8/9%. Now contrast that with your savings rate of 3%. You will be down 5% in that year alone. Not Good! So the SSIA is not a good idea and neither is returning to it.

irishgeo · 15-11-2011 10:29pm

Galtee wrote: »

I will not be allowing anyone access to my home to install a water meter either.

It wont be in your house so they will not need access to your house.

it will be outside more than likely in the pavement or near the road.

gsxr1 · 15-11-2011 11:33pm

I would love to see a big spend on fraud .

So called unmarried mothers getting 1000s when the father is living in the gaff and earning, seems to be common from what I see in my area. Most have better places to live than me and I burst my balls paying for it...

Lads doing the double.

And eastern Europe folk stopped from claiming our benefits when they have moved back home.

Needs to stop .

Government needs to stamp that crap out

Ace2007 · 15-11-2011 11:41pm

gsxr1 wrote: »

I would love to see a big spend on fraud .

So called unmarried mothers getting 1000s when the father is living in the gaff and earning, seems to be common from what I see in my area. Most have better places to live than me and I burst my balls paying for it...

Lads doing the double.

And eastern Europe folk stopped from claiming our benefits when they have moved back home.

Needs to stop .

Government needs to stamp that crap out

Why don't you report them, it's a crime after all, help the governemnt and help yourself pay less tax.

gsxr1 · 15-11-2011 11:47pm

Ace2007 wrote: »

Why don't you report them, it's a crime after all, help the governemnt and help yourself pay less tax.

I have thought about that. But it will not solve the problem nation wide. And be a nasty thing to do on a personal basis . What if they found out it was me. Feck. It could very nasty indeed.
If we stopped the exploitation of our system on a big scale then I believe the savings would be massive.
Its easy for the welfare people to find the offenders. All they have to do is hang around estates at 8am and see who is going to work. At least it seems easy to me.

BOHtox · 16-11-2011 12:16am

Dónal wrote: »

Let the bears pay the bear tax.

I pay Homer Tax!

No Dad, you pay Home Owner tax.

Terry · 16-11-2011 12:30am

seamus wrote: »

What they'll do is apply a flat-rate water charge for anyone without a water meter attached their home, and offer a tax rebate for the cost of fitting the water meter. Over the long-term, it will work out much more expensive to pay the flat-rate than use the meter.

It will also not be possible to sell or rent a property without a water meter fitted and properly calibrated/checked by the relevant authority in the previous 12 months.

Initial rumblings at the moment are that all of these property-related taxes will be consolidated in a single charge. So property tax, water tax, TV licence, sewage tax, etc etc. It will effectively be a "rate" that you pay for your use of public facilities in general, coupled with a property tax, meaning that most people pay around €500/year. But that won't be this year, and maybe not next year. It'll be introduced in the interests of "consolidating" taxes and making them less confusing, after introducing 3 or 4 separate property charges in the space of two years. It'll also be a fiver cheaper than the separate charges so people feel good about it.

This year we'll see a VAT rate increase. 22% maybe. And probably some increse in import duties. We can't spend our way out of a recession. We can only earn money from somewhere else, so they'll aim to lower any taxes which affect exporters and foreign investment.

Cigs will see 10c thrown on. Alcohol won't see an overall increase though it looks like this "minimum price" will get in :rolleyes:
Don't know about fuel. Any increase in fuel makes exports more expensive.
Although the government promised the dole would be untouched, they will leave it alone and cut a huge amount of other social payments.

Voice of reason.
Now you may not agree with this, but PSRI and PAYE should be brought back to 1980's levels.

It will only be a short term measure, but will help to get us back on our feet.

BUDGET 2012

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