[200motels]

The referendum will be a close call, and we're voting on governments living beyond their means to get there house in order, well that's a lie, the reason we went tits up was the fault of banks, we were taking in more than we could spend, but all the tax that came from the property boom was borrowed money. As for the household charge I won't pay because I can't pay. It's supposed to be for local services, well here on the Dunmore road we don't have much local services, no playground for children, nowhere for young teens to go to, or do, we all pay for our bins, we all pay for our estates to be maintained and cleaned, the money will go to line the pockets of local councillors. Another point who gave planning permission on the local council for the retail park out on the six cross road. It smells fishy to me.

[Am Chile]

Even if the numbers being spun are true, Despite all the threats and fearmongering from the goverment more then 50% haven,t paid, well done to all those who stood their ground despite all the threats and refused to pay.

There’s been a fair bit of commentary on twitter re. the household charge numbers and speculating in the media. Having just watched RTE1 News at 6pm it seems incredible to me that the Local Government Management Agency seems to have little idea as to how many housing units are liable for the household charge. It seems even more odd that number seems to be floating between 1.6m and 1.8m. There seems to be a conflation between households (1.654m according to Census 2011) and housing stock minus exemptions/waivers (1.755m based on calculation below, probably 1.72m +/- 20k with the other minor exemptions taken out). It is housing stock that is the base for the household charge (a vacant house is just as liable as an occupied house – this is a tax on property not occupancy). Namawinelake has a post up about who is and isn’t eligible. Working off the data contained in his post (I’ve updated a couple of his figures to Census 2011 data and added a couple, but otherwise I’m quoting his figures and sources) we come up with the following. [On request, I have updated this post to match the data to the exemptions and waivers exactly as set out on the householdcharge.ie website - 21.15pm, Apr 1st]
What is eligible:
All housing units in the state, with seven exemptions and two waivers
Housing units in the state according to Census 2011: 1,994,845
What is exempt:
(1) Residential properties that are part of the trading stock of a business and have not been sold or been the source of any income since construction
18,638 unoccupied vacant housing units in unfinished estates the vast majority of which are unsold (under-construction were not counted in Census), plus small amount of unsold one-offs
(2) Residential property vested in a Minister of the Government or the Health Service Executive
Not known but small, ask govt depts and HSE
(3) Residential property vested in a housing authority, including property where households are purchasing their homes under the Shared Ownership Scheme and where the local authority still retains an ownership stake,
129,033 (renting social housing, Census 2011, Table 39), DECLG should have exact figure
23,547 (being bought from LAs, Census 2006 – I can’t find in Census 2011), DECLG should have exact figure
(4) Voluntary and co-operative housing,
14,942 (renting voluntary housing, Census 2011, Table 39)
(5) Residential property subject to commercial rates and wholly used as a dwelling,
Not known but small, ask local authorities (there was a question on the Census, Table 38, but the class also includes apts in converted houses – total was 27,666 so know it was less than that – could ask CSO if it could disaggregate; )
(6) Residential property owned by certain charities or comprised in a discretionary trust, and
Not known but small
(7) Residential property where a person has to leave their house due to long-term mental or physical infirmity (e.g. a person that has moved into a nursing home).
Not known but small, possibly ask HSE. There was a question on the Census. Table 11 shows 28,395 people live in nursing and children’s homes, not all in nursing home will own property, so know less than that; could see if CSO can disaggregate.
What is waivered:
(1) Owners of residential property entitled to mortgage interest supplement
19,000 (mortgage interest relief, Keane Report), Dept Soc Protection should have exact figure
(2) Owners of residential property located in certain prescribed unfinished housing estates
34,000 (category 3/4 unfinished estates, Money Guide Ireland, exact figure can be obtained from the Housing Development Survey undertaken by DECLG)
Houses eligible – a calculation based on above:
1,994,845 (housing units, Census 2011)
-18,638 (unoccupied vacant housing units unsold, Housing Development Survey, DECLG, 2011)
-129,033 (renting social housing, Census 2011, Table 39)
-14,942 (renting voluntary housing, Census 2011, Table 39)
-23,547 (being bought from LAs, Census 2006 – I can’t find in Census 2011)
-19,000 (mortgage interest relief, Keane Report)
-34,000 (category 3/4 unfinished estates, Money Guide Ireland)
= 1,755,685 (this still needs other small amounts of property taken-off namely exemptions 2, 5, 6, 7 – all of these will be very low in number and should not substantially alter this figure, probably 1.72m +/- 20k based on data above) (update Apr 2nd: also see my comment (no. 10 in list below)).
Households paid, minus the 12,500 who have registered but qualify for the waiver
621,717 (already processed)
+89,000 (by post awaiting processing)
+ 82,175 (registered in local authority offices yesterday)
= 792,892
The percentage of those paid, based on those figures = 45.16%

(54.84% left to pay)

http://irelandafternama.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/household-charge-numbers/

[Sully]

Very early days yet. A lot of people may still register, just a bit later than usual and pay the fine. There is no real urgency in paying it with a fine so small.

[MitchKoobski]

I've had bigger late fines on my library card.

[rasper]

As a big fella once said

"Would pay a charge if ur unhappy with the service"

So fix ur house first lads then come looking to be paid and stop using the troika as ur exuse , very few swallow this bs
And this is what I will be telling anyone that comes to my door to lie to me about voting yes to ecb , yes to jobs

[tiny timy]

Just got my letter stating i havent paid and to stop from getting more fines then to pay immediately. Sorry, not happening. I didnt register for anything so i wont be paying for something i didnt register for. Simple.

[Bards]

If I do get one of these letters than I will pay the €100 with a covering letter saying please find €100 for payment in full.

I don't recognise any late payment fees as I

1.) never received an invoice for the €100
2.) I am allowing this to be the first demand for payment
3.) unless they can provide me with evidence of an original invoice looking for payment of €100 I will ignore any late payment fines.

[mecco]

Originally Posted by Bards

If I do get one of these letters than I will pay the €100 with a covering letter saying please find €100 for payment in full.

I don't recognise any late payment fees as I

1.) never received an invoice for the €100
2.) I am allowing this to be the first demand for payment
3.) unless they can provide me with evidence of an original invoice looking for payment of €100 I will ignore any late payment fines.

Considering the political stink this whole thing is for the government, I wouldn't be surprised if a letter like that got a reply along the lines of "that's grand, thanks very much and g'luck"

[TheChizler]

Originally Posted by Bards

If I do get one of these letters than I will pay the €100 with a covering letter saying please find €100 for payment in full.

I don't recognise any late payment fees as I

1.) never received an invoice for the €100
2.) I am allowing this to be the first demand for payment
3.) unless they can provide me with evidence of an original invoice looking for payment of €100 I will ignore any late payment fines.

You might be stuck there as it could be considered that knowing that the payment was due was public knowledge. You don't get an invoice for taxes at the end of the year do you? Or motor tax (which you do get a reminder for). Or TV license. Or dog license if you've ever paid one.

[Sully]

Originally Posted by Bards

If I do get one of these letters than I will pay the €100 with a covering letter saying please find €100 for payment in full.

I don't recognise any late payment fees as I

1.) never received an invoice for the €100
2.) I am allowing this to be the first demand for payment
3.) unless they can provide me with evidence of an original invoice looking for payment of €100 I will ignore any late payment fines.

Your not required, legally, to be given an invoice...

[Sully]

Am Chile, I know your just here to push the anti-household tax agenda but can you stick to the topic at hand and actually debate rather than posting videos plus actually post in general rather than just push an agenda. Your second post was nothing to do with the topic at hand. Its like me posting a link to the socialists TDs misusing the expenses (travel allowance) and pre-paid envelopes. Its just trying to have a dig to get people to support the campaign.

[Sully]

Originally Posted by Sully

Am Chile, I know your just here to push the anti-household tax agenda but can you stick to the topic at hand and actually debate rather than posting videos plus actually post in general rather than just push an agenda. Your second post was nothing to do with the topic at hand. Its like me posting a link to the socialists TDs misusing the expenses (travel allowance) and pre-paid envelopes. Its just trying to have a dig to get people to support the campaign.

This applies to everyone. Phil Hogan & his antics have nothing to do with Waterford. Pop over to the Politics Forum if you wish to discuss this.

[christmas2012]

we havent paid either - listen they cant fine all of us,they havent even decided yet,and they certainly cant jail all of us - if it comes to it i would rather spend a week in jail than pay that stupid tax,they can jail me every year if they like eejits