"I" lost

DinoBot wrote:

Hi,

Im sorry if this has been discussed I know I read a thread on it a few weeks ago. Thats what got me searching the internet on the topic, but alais Im still a bit confused.

What is the deal with the soul in Buddhism ?

I had always assumed that reincarnation (hindu) was the same as the buddhism view on rebirth, but I think its not. Could someone explain in a few lines if you have a soul or not. If not which part of you, if any is carried over into the next life ?

Thanks

Hi Dinobot and welcome.
You are asking the most common, yet most complex, question asked of Buddhism and the answer is very hard to fully grasp even with years of study. Up front, Buddhism does not believe in the soul. It very clearly states a belief in anatman {anatta in Pali} or soullessness. Buddhist teachings expound no beginning and no end to one's existence or life. There is virtually no recognition of a first cause — e.g. how does human existence first come about?

There is no almighty God in Buddhism. There is no one to hand out rewards or punishments on a supposedly Judgement Day. It is strictly not a religion in the context of being a faith and worship owing allegiance to a supernatural being. Especially emphasized in Mahayana Buddhism, all sentient beings have Buddha Nature/ Essence. One can become a Buddha (a supreme enlightened being) in due course if one practises diligently and attains purity of mind (ie absolutely no delusions or afflictions). In Buddhism, the ultimate objective of followers/practitioners is enlightenment and/or liberation from Samsara; rather than to go to a Heaven (or a deva realm in the context of Buddhist cosmology). Samsara is a fundamental concept in Buddhism and it is simply the 'perpetual cycles of existence' or endless rounds of rebirth among the six realms of existence. This cyclical rebirth pattern will only end when a sentient being attains Nirvana, i.e. virtual exhaustion of karma, habitual traces, defilements and delusions. All other religions preach one heaven, one earth and one hell, but this perspective is very limited compared with Buddhist samsara where heaven is just one of the six realms of existence.??Karma and Karma Force are cornerstones in Buddhist doctrines. They are expounded very thoroughly in Buddhism. Karma refers to an important metaphysical concept concerned with action and its consequences. This law of karma explains the problem of sufferings, the mystery of the so-called fate and predestination of some religions, and above all the apparent inequality of mankind. Rebirth is another key doctrine in Buddhism and it goes hand in hand with karma. There is a subtle difference between rebirth and reincarnation as expounded in Hinduism. Buddhism rejects the theory of a transmigrating permanent soul, whether created by a god or emanating from a divine essence.
As you can see form the above, it is very easy to answer your question with a simple NO SOUL response, but it does not answer the question what then takes the place of the soul in Buddhism. The reason is because we are still looking at the question from the point of view of SELF. Here the soul is seen as a continuation of ones current entity. We Buddhists do not believe in the SELF in that context, therefore, we do not need that kind of continuity. The best way to look at it is in the following analogy.
A man lights a candle during the night to see by. Over the course of the night the candle burns lower and lower until a point is reached when the old candle needs to be replaced with a new one. The man takes a new candle and lights it from the flame of the old one. The old candle is extinguished, and the new candle burns on brightly.
Does this new flame contain the old flame? Is the new flame the same as the old flame. Is the new flame part new flame and part old flame. What is the connection between the old flame and the new flame, and what actually took place. Something was transferred. What was transferred. For the sake of simplicity lets say that light, or the ability to create light, was transferred. So to in Buddhism, the light of what was me is transferred during rebirth.
Now you are probably even more confused. I have spent 20 + years at this and I am still confused. However, from these twenty + years I have gained the wisdom to know that a component of what I am (it is actually called Character in Buddhism) continues on life after life until that component attains Nirvana . My task is not to dwell on this issue of self and or to try to pin down what this component is. My task is to work towards being the best/doing the best I can for myself and others realizing that my life is transient. I do the best I can in the clear knowledge that nature will take its own course and thing will work out as they are destined to do. My good actions will keep me on track to meet my destiny. PLease feel free to question more, I will do my best to come up with answers as i am sure my fellow Buddhists here will also do. It is wonderful to see you searching for truth.

bluewolf wrote:

The problem with the idea of a soul is that it's supposed to be a permanent pretty much unchanging thing. In buddhism, that's a definite no-no.

That was very well explained Bluewolf. Thank you. I had forgotten to mention the lesser and Greater self. I was also impressed that you linked to my groups page. For your refeerence here is my own page which I hope is a little more in depth http://etherbods.homeip.net/etherbods/index.shtml. How was Easter, did you get many eggs. I am peed as the wife and kid brought me none. Let them just wait for Christmas.

Sorry to go off topic


Speaking of Easter, I'm surprised we have been asked the question of, Can Buddhists celebrate Easter? ...And what about Christmas?? seeing that it's something that can pop up in a Buddhists life many times over as people try to understand it.

Oh and got a gift of 'After Eight' Egg and an very happy:)


Back on topic,

I am very happy, you take subjects that are hard to grasp from an outside point of view and turn them into something readable and understandable and leave people wanting more

Thank you, happy Easter!

god's toy wrote:

Oh and got a gift of 'After Eight' Egg and an very happy:)

Arrrrrg, you see, another happy Choco-filled person. Poor me:(

god's toy wrote:

I am very happy, you take subjects that are hard to grasp from an outside point of view and turn them into something readable and understandable and leave people wanting more

Thank you, happy Easter!

Believe me, the pleasure is all ours (that includes you). I am really happy that we are developing this vibrant community here. I have been taught that the two keys to understanding Buddhism are honest debate and less complexity. The old KISS formula holds true for Buddhism. As far as I am concerned, when it come to celebrating things like Easter and Christmas, I am in it for the food. I would never make a good monk, I like food way too much.:) Thats why I am an excellent cook, even if I do say so myself.

maitri wrote:

and from a Buddhist point of view isn’t it… also…. possible to say that we already are Buddhas? So becoming a Buddha is really to experience and understand what we really are, and have been, all the time? What we didn’t see, because we were deluded and confused?

bluewolf replies:That's the Zen way of looking at things - that we already have the buddha nature, but it's been built upon by so much rubbish and ego and "I want I want" that it's concealed. But zazen helps bring it out again, I think.

Maitri you ask is it possible that we are already Buddha's and the experience is to understand what we are and what we have been. In a way yes, that could indeed be said to hold true. In the school of Buddhism I am in, time has been broken down into ages. The current age is called the The Latter Day of the Law., the time before this one was known as Mappo. The current age, is defined as the age where the Bodhisattvas appear in the world to guide all who seek to reach enlighten.This is going to be hard without a full understanding of this schools teaching, but here goes. According to these teachings, many Buddhists that you will meet are deemed to have been Buddhist in previous lives that attained enlightenment, or some high level of understanding, but who then elected to return to this age to help others attain the goal of enlightenment. A very good example would be the Dalai Lama and a scattering of other monks and individuals around the world. So from this perspective one could indeed say that becoming a Buddha is really to understand what we were, what we are now, and what we will become. Very nearly the same as what you said. But with one major difference, the key difference is that we have to reveal all over again our Buddhahood in each rebirth since an enlightened person cannot reside on this earth in an enlightened form. It is for this reason that we do not say we are already a Buddha.

bluewolf wrote:

That's the Zen way of looking at things - that we already have the buddha nature, but it's been built upon by so much rubbish and ego and "I want I want" that it's concealed. But zazen helps bring it out again, I think..

I am a little confused with your answer back to Maitri as she was referring to being a Buddha now and your comment is on Buddha nature. Though your answer is correct in relation to an understanding of Zazen, it may not be the answer to the question she posed which was about being a Buddha now. I think we both understand the same thing, if not, please correct me if I am wrong. My understanding is that all branches of Buddhism, not just Zen, adhere to having Buddha nature as an inherent part of our make up. As I understand it, we are all born with the Buddha nature inside but it needs to be revealed. It is by virtue of awakening this Buddha nature that we then create the potential inside to become a Buddha. This is symbolized in Buddhism by the special place attributed to the Lotus Flower. Just for any that do not know this one. The Lotus flower has two unusual properties. The first is that though it is considered to be a beautiful looking flower with a heavenly scent, it grows in the dirtiest of muddy water. The dirtier the water, the more beautiful the flower. The second point it that it both seeds and blooms at the same time, most plants of course flower, are pollinated and seed. The dirty water and the beauty of the bloom represents that fact that from the heaviest bad karma we can still bring forth our Buddha nature. The dual seeding and blooming represents the simultaneity of cause and effect. It is also why the Lotus Sutra is considered by many to be the King of Sutras. It is the one I use daily.

bluewolf wrote:

Are you an LDS in disguise??

That answer will cost you one choco Easter bunny, with ears intact

bluewolf wrote:

Oh. That was the difference I'd picked up on with Zen - other traditions sort of aspire/try to become buddhas, Zen says we already are underneath all this. That's what I meant.

Ah got you, sorry I am not really up to power on Zen. It is the one member in the Buddist family that I have doubts with. It does of course have lots of good stuff too, but I am just not at ease with it.

bluewolf wrote:

How come? It seems good to me. Somewhat inclined toward it

Let me get back to you on it, I want to refresh my memory. I might see it differently after so long.