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Summons for theft

  • 29-10-2013 12:43pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 20


    Hello
    This summer put a €5 lipstick in my shopping bag in Penny's and failed to pay for it.. I paid for all the rest of the goods.. The security guard stopped me upon departure and took me to a room where a member of the Gardai took a statement from me. I feel terrible and I told the Garda it was completely out of character for me to do anything like this and I genuienly do'nt know why I did it...
    I have now received my court summons date and I am terrified of what will happen..
    I am a student teacher and I am afraid I will get a criminal record for this offence...
    What are the best and worst possible outcomes?
    Any help would be greatly appreciated


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    The charter precludes legal advice, which is exactly what you should have sought by now. Get a solicitor on to this today. I don't mean to sound harsh but this is not something to bury your head in the sand about and hope it goes away.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭theblaqueguy


    If you have no previous convictions
    Which would mean you have not been to court before for anything the judge should give you the option to make a donation to the court charity fund you will not get a conviction if your allowed do that its upto the judge
    I would also advise to get a solicitor like the previous poster said


  • Registered Users Posts: 20 MissSilly


    I am a student.. I have never been in a situation before.. I have no idea how to go about getting legal advice.. How much does it cost?.. I am mortified and ashamed of myself and far too embarrassed to ask any of my friends or family for help..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    MissSilly wrote: »
    I am a student.. I have never been in a situation before.. I have no idea how to go about getting legal advice.. How much does it cost?.. I am mortified and ashamed of myself and far too embarrassed to ask any of my friends or family for help..

    Forget the cost, take out a bank loan if you have too. A reasonable solicitor may be able to help with a significantly better outcome than just pitching up. Your college, if it has a law department, will likely have a FLAC (Free Legal Advice Clinic) you may be able to get some advice there, you may also qualify for legal aid.

    Just Google solicitors in your area and ask them about legal aid and explain the situation.

    We all do stupid things from time to time, but if you broke your leg you wouldn't leave it and hope it goes away. The same thing applies here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭irishgrover


    I would suggest you quickly get over the embarrassment and shame. If you don't deal with this properly you could well end up with a criminal conviction which will lead to much more than embarrassment and shame in the future when you start looking for employment or travel visas.
    Best of luck, but time to swallow your pride, get you head of of the sand and deal with this...get a solicitor...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭U.P.O.


    MissSilly wrote: »
    I am a student.. I have never been in a situation before.. I have no idea how to go about getting legal advice.. How much does it cost?.. I am mortified and ashamed of myself and far too embarrassed to ask any of my friends or family for help..

    Most Universities have free legal aid (at least they did when i was in college) Try looking into that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    U.P.O. wrote: »
    Most Universities have free legal aid (at least they did when i was in college) Try looking into that.

    Don't confuse FLAC with legal aid, a prospective solicitor will be able to advise on the latter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51,115 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    You can get a solicitor in the court before the case is held. Go early and ask one to represent you. You will probably get off lightly i.e. probation act as it's your first time. It's no big deal but don't leave it hanging.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20 MissSilly


    You can get a solicitor in the court before the case is held. Go early and ask one to represent you. You will probably get off lightly i.e. probation act as it's your first time. It's no big deal but don't leave it hanging.
    How much do they normally charge?
    Would I not have too meet with one before hand and find out what happens?
    What is a probation act?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    MissSilly wrote: »
    I am a student.. I have never been in a situation before.. I have no idea how to go about getting legal advice.. How much does it cost?.. I am mortified and ashamed of myself and far too embarrassed to ask any of my friends or family for help..

    Many SU's have an arrangement with a local solicitor. You may also because of your situation be entitled to legal aid. In any event it's easy to find a solicitor google search your local area for criminal solicitors. If you deal with this matter correctly it may even be struck out, but ignore it you will have a theft conviction.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    You can get a solicitor in the court before the case is held. Go early and ask one to represent you. You will probably get off lightly i.e. probation act as it's your first time. It's no big deal but don't leave it hanging.

    I would say not the way to deal with a theft charge. The solicitor will need to make a Garry Doyle order, and then arrange a date for plea or hearing. Best to contact solicitor well in advance of summons date.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51,115 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    MissSilly wrote: »
    How much do they normally charge?
    Would I not have too meet with one before hand and find out what happens?
    What is a probation act?

    Not sure but its not too much for such a small case probably 80 euro (not sure).
    If you give him your account that morning he will represent you no problem. Ask one of the garda which one you should go to so you get a good one.
    Probation act is like keeping the crime on record in case you do it again but not giving you a fine or conviction (again I think).

    Don't worry too much as its no big deal. Very minor crime.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    MissSilly wrote: »
    How much do they normally charge?
    Would I not have too meet with one before hand and find out what happens?
    What is a probation act?

    As Infosys has indicated Tayto's advice isn't great. Precisely why legal advice can't be sought here.

    The probation act, which you've absolutely NO GUARANTEE of getting would allow for no criminal record and probably a donation to the poor box.

    My last post here, but OP WHY THE FECK are you still posting here and not phoning round solicitors. Staying here is likely to get you into even more trouble given some of the advice being handed out. You're clearly looking for someone to give you the answer you want, not the answer that will best protect you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20 MissSilly


    infosys wrote: »
    I would say not the way to deal with a theft charge. The solicitor will need to make a Garry Doyle order, and then arrange a date for plea or hearing. Best to contact solicitor well in advance of summons date.

    I have received my date now.. Its in January.. The Garda that took my details that day said he didnt think it would go to court.. that I would probably be called to go to my local Garda Station and speak to a certain Garda who deals with this area.. This never materialised and now Im being summoned..


  • Registered Users Posts: 307 ✭✭gavindublin


    To avoid a lot of situations like this they introduced the adult caution process. The super of the original station that you were charged from reviews your file. If it was a first offense he calls you in and issues the caution. Very surprised this hasnt happened unless your leaving details out. Contact the station who issed the summons, ask to meet with the super. He may be willing to strike it out and apply the adult caution.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    Not sure but its not too much for such a small case probably 80 euro (not sure).
    If you give him your account that morning he will represent you no problem. Ask one of the garda which one you should go to so you get a good one.
    Probation act is like keeping the crime on record in case you do it again but not giving you a fine or conviction (again I think).

    Don't worry too much as its no big deal. Very minor crime.

    It is a theft offence, while it is a minor amount it is a dishonesty offence, it will effect any state job, it will effect any job in large multi national it will effect visa to most countries. To deal with this matter with out Garry Doyle order and time to review and request CCTV would be professionally negligent in my humble opinion. The OP needs to understand that this matter is serious and to deal with it on the day is a really bad idea. There may be deficiencies in the summons or the evidence not best to try and deal with that on the day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51,115 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    To avoid a lot of situations like this they introduced the adult caution process. The super of the original station that you were charged from reviews your file. If it was a first offense he calls you in and issues the caution. Very surprised this hasnt happened unless your leaving details out. Contact the station who issed the summons, ask to meet with the super. He may be willing to strike it out and apply the adult caution.

    That's a good way to deal with this type of minor crime.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    To avoid a lot of situations like this they introduced the adult caution process. The super of the original station that you were charged from reviews your file. If it was a first offense he calls you in and issues the caution. Very surprised this hasnt happened unless your leaving details out. Contact the station who issed the summons, ask to meet with the super. He may be willing to strike it out and apply the adult caution.

    AGS must take into account views of victim, many retail companies have a all shoplifters prosecuted, on that basis AGS may have decided to prosecute.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51,115 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    infosys wrote: »
    AGS must take into account views of victim, many retail companies have a all shoplifters prosecuted, on that basis AGS may have decided to prosecute.

    Is it not up to the garda to decide whether to prosecute or not?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    Is it not up to the garda to decide whether to prosecute or not?

    Well outside a private proscution which is possible in summary cases yes it is upto AGS to prosecute. The DC is full of proscutions for as little as a can of coke, 10 or 20 euro of hash, criminal damage of 50 to 100 euros, I have sat in court and wondered why a large amount of cases are there, but they are, a theft of €10 is still a criminal offence. I know that some retailers insist on calling AGS to all detected offences, and request that no adult caution be administered.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 20 MissSilly


    To avoid a lot of situations like this they introduced the adult caution process. The super of the original station that you were charged from reviews your file. If it was a first offense he calls you in and issues the caution. Very surprised this hasnt happened unless your leaving details out. Contact the station who issed the summons, ask to meet with the super. He may be willing to strike it out and apply the adult caution.

    This is what the Garda told me would be the likely outcome of the offence. I have not left out any details. I think am going to call the Garda and ask him is it too late for this option.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    MissSilly wrote: »
    This is what the Garda told me would be the likely outcome of the offence. I have not left out any details. I think am going to call the Garda and ask him is it too late for this option.

    You have been given good advice to contact a solicitor, you have been told your SU may have a free solicitor and you maybe able to get legal aid. Let the solicitor contact the Garda if he thinks it will help. But just get proper legal advice.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    To avoid a lot of situations like this they introduced the adult caution process. The super of the original station that you were charged from reviews your file. If it was a first offense he calls you in and issues the caution. Very surprised this hasnt happened unless your leaving details out. Contact the station who issed the summons, ask to meet with the super. He may be willing to strike it out and apply the adult caution.


    This is good advice. Make an appointment to speak with the Superintendent and see is there an option for an Adult Caution. It is not in the interests of justice that you be prosecuted for this. Have all the details of the case, your background etc ready for the meeting. If not confident about speaking with the Superintendent get a solicitor to do it as soon as possible. There are many cases every year where cautions are given out. This means that you would not have a criminal record and would avoid media publicity which could occur if it is outside Dublin where the District Court reports are big news in the local papers.
    A Superintendent can recommend no prosecution. Even if he had to get the DPPs consent the DPP would take the lead from the Superintendents recommendation. Anyone can make the stupid mistake you did. Good
    Don't delay. Get working on this immediately.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    infosys wrote: »
    Well outside a private proscution which is possible in summary cases yes it is upto AGS to prosecute. The DC is full of proscutions for as little as a can of coke, 10 or 20 euro of hash, criminal damage of 50 to 100 euros, I have sat in court and wondered why a large amount of cases are there, but they are, a theft of €10 is still a criminal offence. I know that some retailers insist on calling AGS to all detected offences, and request that no adult caution be administered.

    A lot of people do not pursue the option of an Adult Caution because they have to admit their guilt. They prefer to take their chance on a dismissal. Of course then they may also have some previous convictions


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    Santa Cruz wrote: »
    A lot of people do not pursue the option of an Adult Caution because they have to admit their guilt. They prefer to take their chance on a dismissal. Of course then they may also have some previous convictions

    Accept that a number of people offered Adult Caution don't accept it, in this case the option was not given.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭Sala


    Get a Solicitor OP. A criminal conviction can have serious repercussions


  • Registered Users Posts: 133 ✭✭doublej


    infosys wrote: »
    It is a theft offence, while it is a minor amount it is a dishonesty offence, it will effect any state job, it will effect any job in large multi national it will effect visa to most countries. To deal with this matter with out Garry Doyle order and time to review and request CCTV would be professionally negligent in my humble opinion. The OP needs to understand that this matter is serious and to deal with it on the day is a really bad idea. There may be deficiencies in the summons or the evidence not best to try and deal with that on the day.

    The student Miss Silly has admitted that she had stolen the lipstick, why on earth would you have her plead Not Guilty and seek CCTV footage in the hope that there may be a dificiency in the prosecution, even though it would require the student to be less than forthcoming with the whole truth in her sworn evidence.
    Get a solicitor by all means, plead guilty and provide your solicitor with as much background information as possible to attest to your character; be prepared to swear on Oath that this was and will be a one off theft, apologise to the retail outlet from whom you stole and cost a lot of additional money in their security officers time and believe that the Judge is merciful and kind.
    If you deny the theft and there is a need to extend your hearing then the outcome becomes a little more difficult to predict as you will have increased the possibility of a conviction without a Probation Act .
    I wish you well and suggest that if at all possible you ask your best friend to accompany you for support , she will know that the theft was out of character and will not be judgemental I hope.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 50 ✭✭McCongo


    Free legal aid will be allowed for this type of offence. Miss Silly should go to he District Court on sitting days, as soon as possible, and identify the legal aid solicitors. She should approach the one who seems most on the ball and ask to have her case taken on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 133 ✭✭doublej


    It isn't quite as simple as selecting a vegetable from a market stall!
    The free criminal legal aid scheme is available if Miss Silly can satisfy the Court that neither she nor her parent(s) have the means to afford a fair representation.
    The seriousness of the offence is also taken into consideration.
    If Miss Silly is granted legal aid, she will need to know the financial circumstances of her parents, ( assuming that she is dependant or somewhat dependant upon them), and provide that information to the Court officials that administer applications for free criminal legal aid.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    doublej wrote: »
    The student Miss Silly has admitted that she had stolen the lipstick, why on earth would you have her plead Not Guilty and seek CCTV footage in the hope that there may be a dificiency in the prosecution, even though it would require the student to be less than forthcoming with the whole truth in her sworn evidence.
    Get a solicitor by all means, plead guilty and provide your solicitor with as much background information as possible to attest to your character; be prepared to swear on Oath that this was and will be a one off theft, apologise to the retail outlet from whom you stole and cost a lot of additional money in their security officers time and believe that the Judge is merciful and kind.
    If you deny the theft and there is a need to extend your hearing then the outcome becomes a little more difficult to predict as you will have increased the possibility of a conviction without a Probation Act .
    I wish you well and suggest that if at all possible you ask your best friend to accompany you for support , she will know that the theft was out of character and will not be judgemental I hope.

    As a person on trial the accused does not have to give evidence. It is up to the AGS to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. But let's look against what she said,


    "This summer put a €5 lipstick in my shopping bag in Penny's and failed to pay for it.. I paid for all the rest of the goods.. The security guard stopped me upon departure and took me to a room where a member of the Gardai took a statement from me. I feel terrible and I told the Garda it was completely out of character for me to do anything like this and I genuienly do'nt know why I did it..."

    There is doubt that the person deliberately took the goods, enough doubt to at least look at the evidence. If there is enough evidence to prove guilt in the "Garry Doyle" order then a person can contemplate pleading guilty.

    To go with a best friend instead of a solicitor or to go without a solicitor even when pleading guilty can mean the difference between getting a strick out or a conviction. A good solicitor will know the most likely outcome, will know if there will be need for an appeal, a good solicitor will know if no conviction is a possibility even for a plea and will also know if there is enough evidence.


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