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Why is IMF/ECB running the Irish economy so bad?

  • 18-11-2010 9:54pm
    #1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭


    So, it could be a very naive question but I've yet to hear reasons why IMF/ECB calling the shots will be so bad. Apparently the IMF was also called to sort out Britain's finances in 1976 (although I'm not sure how they compared with our situation).

    Yes, there'll be enormous cuts, but now won't Fianna Fáil have an outsider to blame for doing what Fianna Fáil was promising to do to us anyway. What else will be different?

    Without being cynical, could Fianna Fáil be so against IMF/ECB involvement because they're afraid that it will be revealed that our economy is much worse than we have thus far thought it is?

    Enlighten me, please.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,306 ✭✭✭Chuchoter


    As far as I'm aware, they will kill all our first born sons and take all our cheese.

    Other than that I haven't a clue. The IMF aren't looking for votes though, unlike the parties, so they will cut whatever they feel like that maybe politicians wouldn't cut for fear of not getting re-elected.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭Buford T Justice


    For one, we lose the ability to make our own decisions in regards to our financial affairs and what taxes we cut / raise and where we spend our cash and how much we spend.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    It's actually not so bad, but only due to the fact that it will hopefully stop Fianna Failure totally wiping out the state. I'd rather a 5-year old was in charge than the current shower of corrupt gombeen men.

    The bad news is that now they are here, they are here for a long time - which means that even if we do elect a government with an positve IQ figure and with better ethics than a Nigerian 419 scammer, they will still only be able to make decisions that fit in with what those who lend us the money will agree with.

    So if the new government thinks that we desperately need better treatment for cancer patients, we won't be allowed spend more money on it (without cutting the same from somebody else). The same if the mental health services are collapsing due to huge pressure from the newly redundant. Or if there is a crime spree, we can't give the Gardaí more resources without taking the money from primary schools, or whatever. These are emotive examples, but realistic ones.

    So it's better than Fianna Failure running things, but it's a minor disaster for when Fianna Failure get the boot and a proper government takes over.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    It isn't that bad really. We *need* to make tough budget decisions over the next couple of years, the IMF will make this politically easier to achieve. It's embarrassing alright but let's face it, we already have screwed the economy up beyond recognition, so it's not like we don't already look bad.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    I dont like the idea of faceless foreigners making economic decisions for us. You can bet the working man will suffer.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    For one, we lose the ability to make our own decisions in regards to our financial affairs and what taxes we cut / raise and where we spend our cash and how much we spend.

    Fair enough but without being flippant very many of those decisions were absolutely dreadful and have us in this awful (?) place today. Maybe the same country which makes Porsche, Mercedes and BMW can make something better out of our economy?

    Personally, I would much prefer to pay French/German-style taxes in order to have a French/German-style health system etc (although I accept that service won't be coming any time soon). If they can bring greater efficiencies into the running of this state to the extent that I get those services for higher taxes then I'd be happy. I never took to the Reagan-Thatcherite model which we've been using here for some time. Charlie McCreevy and Mary Harney were never my favourite people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,628 ✭✭✭Koloman


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I dont like the idea of faceless foreigners making economic decisions for us. You can bet the working man will suffer.

    I'd rather have a faceless foreigner than a Fianna Failer.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I dont like the idea of faceless foreigners making economic decisions for us. You can bet the working man will suffer.

    Don't vote FF/Greens ever again so, and make sure you tell others not to either.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    You can bet the working man will suffer.

    That's true. But does anybody know how the IMF distributed the pain in other countries they went into? Did it attack the ridiculous salaries at the top of the system relatively as hard as it attacked salaries lower down? That's an important question. Anybody?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Koloman wrote: »
    I'd rather have a faceless foreigner than a Fianna Failer.
    I wouldnt actually. Would much prefer FF to be doing it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Don't vote FF/Greens ever again so, and make sure you tell others not to either.
    Considering I have never voted at all that wont be hard.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    The bad news is that now they are here, they are here for a long time

    Anybody have any idea how long the IMF would usually spend in a country directing economic policy? What are the precedents which compare to Ireland's situation?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Anybody have any idea how long the IMF would usually spend in a country directing economic policy? What are the precedents which compare to Ireland's situation?

    See PrimeTime "dramatization" feature on IMF/EU from few days ago


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I wouldnt actually. Would much prefer FF to be doing it.
    Yeah - vote Fianna Fail! What's the worst that could happen?

    Oh yeah.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭PeterIanStaker


    nesf wrote: »
    It isn't that bad really. We *need* to make tough budget decisions over the next couple of years, the IMF will make this politically easier to achieve. It's embarrassing alright but let's face it, we already have screwed the economy up beyond recognition, so it's not like we don't already look bad.

    A minority - Fianna Fail cowboy gombeen traitors- have screwed the country, not "we". The ordinary person who worked hard (and is now going to get less money), to provide for their family didn't screw it.

    (Isn't it ironic that the concept of collective guilt is most associated with Germany).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Yeah - vote Fianna Fail! What's the worst that could happen?

    Oh yeah.
    Where did I say that? I would rather people we elected did the deed then some men in suits, thats all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Where did I say that? I would rather people we elected did the deed then some men in suits, thats all.
    Even if the people that 'we' elected (Fianna Failure) have proven that they are corrupt and incompetent?

    As I said, in the short term it's probably a good thing because the guys who dug us into this hole have had their shovels confiscated. The bad news is that the people who come in to rebuild our country will not have the use of that shovel anymore because of the stupidity of their predecessors.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    Koloman wrote: »
    I'd rather have a faceless foreigner than a Fianna Failer.

    I agree, the people here cant be trusted to run an economy, Im sure the foreigners will be shocked when they dig deeper into our books...


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    A minority - Fianna Fail cowboy gombeen traitors- have screwed the country, not "we". The ordinary person who worked hard (and is now going to get less money), to provide for their family didn't screw it.

    (Isn't it ironic that the concept of collective guilt is most associated with Germany).

    It's easy to blame minority groups like FF or the bankers, but when you get down to it was ordinary people fanning the flames, buying up property and demanding politicians increase spending on public services year after year. In the last two sets of elections the parties were all falling over themselves to offer even more spending to the people because that's what the people wanted. Very, very few people were counselling caution.

    I think it's fair to say we ****ed up the country as a people, it's just not a popular sentiment.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 30 Dinge


    I think it will be bad for public/civil servants. Forget about the bigger picture of what they're currently paid and their pension that they might get when they retire. On a local human level, finding oneself out of a job at a time when there are hundreds of thousands of others on the dole is nothing to cheer about.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    For one, we lose the ability to make our own decisions in regards to our financial affairs and what taxes we cut / raise and where we spend our cash and how much we spend.

    For two, that is not true


  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    For one, we lose the ability to make our own decisions in regards to our financial affairs and what taxes we cut / raise and where we spend our cash and how much we spend.
    This is almost, but not quite, entirely wrong.

    DeV.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,925 ✭✭✭Paleface


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Without being cynical, could Fianna Fáil be so against IMF/ECB involvement because they're afraid that it will be revealed that our economy is much worse than we have thus far thought it is?

    Enlighten me, please.

    FF are against the IMF/ECB coming in because it will ruin their political reputation. They are effectively finished as a political power in this country apart from the people who vote for them on blind faith.

    I also think that they feel that given enough time this country can sort all this out itself. The problem with this though is that they've not only ruined everybodies confidence in them here but also abroad and they are no longer a viable government. For the good of the country they should have gone long ago but they chose not to.

    The stigma of having to concede our own fate to outsiders is one that will not be easily shifted and they will suffer accordingly.

    On the plus side I do think that once the IMF start to restore confidence this country can start to regain its foothold in international markets.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 836 ✭✭✭rumour


    This post has been deleted.

    Oh I just saw that. How pious is he....

    Correct please if I am wrong but would it be fair to say that he doesn't really support the 3% deficit target by 2014:rolleyes:

    I also liked how keen he was to stress that the next governmet will be tied in a striat jacket. Good idea if he's going to be about:pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭Sea Sharp


    nesf wrote: »
    I think it's fair to say we ****ed up the country as a people, it's just not a popular sentiment.

    That's very true.
    Imagine a political party, during the boom years, promising to make it more difficult for people to get mortgages and promising to maintain or cut public sector wages to 'sustainable' levels.:pac:

    The IMF/ECB will force us to balance our budget. It will allow cuts to be made without 'will this move gain or lose us votes in the next election?' coming into the equation.

    I'm being optimistic and hoping that they'll tackle public sector inefficiencies head on as opposed to draconian pay-cuts and tax hikes for everybody.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 30 Dinge


    Sea Sharp wrote: »
    I'm being optimistic and hoping that they'll tackle public sector inefficiencies head on as opposed to draconian pay-cuts and tax hikes for everybody.
    Not a hope. I'm guessing they'll just view people on the payroll as being burdens on the state and fire them regardless of how good they are. It doesn't have to make sense - it just has to look good and look like cuts are being made.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    As a teenager can I sit on a high horse and decry you elder folk for fcuking everything up?

    Seriously though it is very depressing that all my expectations, job wise etc, the ideal life that everyone strove for(two cars, holiday home etc) has been exposed as the type of thing which has messed everything up. Even more depressing that the world and country I spent my childhood in is gone forever, it will never be as good as it was, economically. Now I am in a position where I may not be able to afford to complete my education. Or if I do complete my college course I highly doubt I will be able to go on to do what I wanted to do afterwards(I wanted to be a Barrister, gonna be difficult to afford that). So emigration seems likely.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    nesf wrote: »
    Very, very few people were counselling caution.

    Not as "very few" (i.e. zero) as the FF apologists would like us to believe.
    nesf wrote: »
    I think it's fair to say we ****ed up the country as a people, it's just not a popular sentiment.

    I think know it's (unfair) to say that.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 836 ✭✭✭rumour


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    As a teenager can I sit on a high horse and decry you elder folk for fcuking everything up?

    Seriously though it is very depressing that all my expectations, job wise etc, the ideal life that everyone strove for(two cars, holiday home etc) has been exposed as the type of thing which has messed everything up. Even more depressing that the world and country I spent my childhood in is gone forever, it will never be as good as it was, economically. Now I am in a position where I may not be able to afford to complete my education. Or if I do complete my college course I highly doubt I will be able to go on to do what I wanted to do afterwards(I wanted to be a Barrister, gonna be difficult to afford that). So emigration seems likely.

    Don't worry, go abroad enjoy yourself for a few(10) years. Some time in the future FAS will come looking for you to help out old Ireland. (all on expenses of course). FF will probably be back in power and the good times will start all over again.


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