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WAN Ideas

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245

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    #32
    Chaos-Engine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 772 ✭✭✭Chaos-Engine


    Originally posted by Praetorian
    Has anyone done the maths on this??

    How many people in my area would I need to make it reasonably feasable financially?


    Answer: Not many. And it will be alot cheaper than anything currently on offer. And the BONUS. WE would own it and control it.

    11-50 MB/s :D


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    #33
    rymus
    Registered Users Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭rymus


    I wonder would an isp be up for helping us with this too ?

    Good in theory for financial backing & infrastructre, but we want to keep prices as low as possible. Id say any ISP involvement and they'd be searching for profit margins and so on.. I think if we need funding in the long run with this, we could just lease the service to businesses (cos business users ALWAYS pay more than residential :D) Theres always plenty of investors excited in new developments in tech sector anyway. And lets face it, theres nothing as new as the users themselves forming their own ISP :)
    I was offered the use of a 2mb line for testing before but the location was not in my line of sight so I could do nothing about it. Pity.

    whereabouts is this line located? Just because its not in your line of sight doesnt mean its not workable :) There will probably be a few base stations anyway (funds permitting of course) so we may be able to use that line after all in a short term testing capacity (before we get our own :)) Anyway, I'll leave you to your drafting, good luck!


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    #34
    Matfinn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 364 ✭✭Matfinn


    Lo all. Found a really good page with tonnes of info on setting up a WAN, aswell as pages that people who run a WAN have setup.

    http://bengross.com/wireless.html

    Have a look and I hope its of some use. Makes a good read:)

    Gluck
    Matt


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    #35
    yellum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,025 ✭✭✭yellum


    Fixer thanks for all the links.

    Brendan, is there any way you can put up some online documentation for the network you set up and more info on those aerials and such ? First hand user experience is invaluable.

    Getting some hardware hackers into this discussion would prove invaluable as well I think. Theres some in Cork that have made some interesting things. Theres prob a few in your area too.

    Wonder could we get a forum set up for all things wireless and hardware hacking/tweaking ?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31580

    Go there if you think its a good idea.


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    #36
    Matfinn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 364 ✭✭Matfinn


    Im from Dublin myself, and I live in Howth. On top of the hill of Howth is a good place to put some Antenna's, because there are already some up there, and Howth is the only really hilly place in this part of Dublin. Id say that a good few houses in and around Kilbarrack, Sutton, Baldoyle, Portmarnock, Malahide, Coolock, Bayside, Killester, The city centre, and maybe even parts of South Dublin along the coast would have a good line of sight.

    These antennas also have good range ( upto 20km ), so all these areas would be well covered. Anyone living in these areas drop me a mail if your interested.

    matfinucane at eircom dot net


    Gluck

    Matt


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    #37
    phaxx
    Registered Users Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭phaxx


    I doubt there's enough interest for a whole new section, net/comms is quiet enough anyway. Off ye go. :)


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    #38
    yellum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,025 ✭✭✭yellum


    Originally posted by rymus


    Good in theory for financial backing & infrastructre, but we want to keep prices as low as possible. Id say any ISP involvement and they'd be searching for profit margins and so on..

    Well I was thinking of the backing of an ISP maybe just for a leased line or something like that. Not actually paying for the hardware. If Esat was used to get the leased line they might give a hand in the planning of the sites. They do have planners in Digifone with very good maps and equipment. You never know.


    I think if we need funding in the long run with this, we could just lease the service to businesses (cos business users ALWAYS pay more than residential :D) Theres always plenty of investors excited in new developments in tech sector anyway. And lets face it, theres nothing as new as the users themselves forming their own ISP :)


    Well if you were to rent to a business you'd have to have an agreed quality of service etc. That can spiral into litigation and everything else. Once the technology has calmed down and good quaity, reliable standards and practices are brought in you could look at giving it to a business then. Home users would be so much easier to cater for though.

    Personally I'd be more into the community idea of it. I'd set up an independent network if I was to offer this kind of service commercially, but with access gateways so the two networks could talk.


    whereabouts is this line located? Just because its not in your line of sight doesnt mean its not workable :) There will probably be a few base stations anyway (funds permitting of course) so we may be able to use that line after all in a short term testing capacity (before we get our own :))

    The line is in the city centre. It was only to test my equipment and theirs. I'd prefer to try and get some proper commercial sponsorship. For example getting some company thats thinking of doing this to give us a small bit of money and we'll test away and find little problems and workarounds and other things that were not catered for in advance. We would then provide all this information to the sponsor so they could use it for their trials.

    Anyway, am wasting precious time. ;)


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    #39
    kamobe
    Registered Users Posts: 857 ✭✭✭kamobe


    If you start selling to buisnesses, don't you need a license?

    I am personnally interested in setting something up for a local community, non-profit. I think selling it will lead to corruption :}

    Anyone else in the Dublin 15 area who would like to help, please get in touch :)


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    #40
    yellum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,025 ✭✭✭yellum


    Have you tried the WAN Dublin mailing list ? You might find a match there.


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    #41
    kamobe
    Registered Users Posts: 857 ✭✭✭kamobe


    "Have you tried the WAN Dublin mailing list ? You might find a match there."


    Having tried that list, I'm told what's proposed is illegal, even though it's non-profit.....

    Can someone verify this?


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    #42
    yellum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,025 ✭✭✭yellum


    I think the ODTR allows this now without a license. http://www.odtr.ie

    ODTR Press Release 04/09/2001

    Regulator to permit short-range public access services using
    technologies such as bluetooth, Hiperlan and IEEE 802.11

    Etain Doyle, Telecoms Regulator today ( Tuesday 4th
    September 2001) confirmed that she will permit the provision of short range public access services in the 2.4GHz and 5GHZ bands using technologies which are exempt from licensing under the Wireless Telegraphy Acts.

    The Regulator also announced that the ODTR is to conduct a full review of the Fixed Wireless Access in Ireland with a view to licensing further FWA spectrum.

    Commenting on the licensing of short range public access
    services she said " this will enable network operators and their
    customers to gain full advantage from emerging high speed data standards such as Bluetooth, Hiperlan, and IEEE 802.11 series of radio local area network (RLAN) products, many of which are now readily available in the Irish Market place. It may also suit some private uses such as campus connections.

    Operators will be free to use these bands subject to certain
    technical restrictions, on a non-exclusive basis. If offering services
    to the public they will need to have an appropriate telecommunications service licence. This facility may be useful either to complement their existing icensed services or to provide localised services in areas not currently served."


  • Options
    #43
    pencil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 606 ✭✭✭pencil


    Hi All,

    I have been following this thread & reading the archives @ WAN-DUBLIN. I live in Dublin 7 (Drumcondra - Phibsboro) and would be very interested in getting involved in anything that's happening in this area.

    Unfortunately I have no tech knowledge in the area, but willing to learn (can anyone recommend a link or book along the line of 'WAN for dummies')

    People seem to have been trying to get a site together on the WAN-DUBLIN list, this I can & would be willing to do.

    ;P

    Me stuff @ www.neonsoup.com


  • Options
    #44
    IKiigan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26 ✭IKiigan


    Originally posted by Dr_Teeth
    There's mailing list that's been in existence for some months now for discussion of this very topic!

    Click here: http://lists.boxhost.net/mailman/listinfo/wan-dublin

    For subscription info or to look through the archives.

    Teeth.

    Yup, I advise anyone interested to take this discussion over to the WAN DUBLIN list which my right honourable colleague Dr. Teeth has just advertised :)

    No reason why we can't discuss WANs elsewhere in the country too.

    The list traffic has been somewhat slow ... mostly daunted by the expense of equipment, along with difficulty of getting decent line-of-sight in Dublin, and of course legal issues. Read the archives, and post - it'd be good to continue those discussions.


    Regards

    Ian


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    #45
    bkehoe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭bkehoe


    hmm, hate mailing lists :(

    I beleive a "telecommunications service licence" would be needed if you were to be selling a wireless internet service. In my opinion, calling it a public non profit network that does not guarantee service in any way would probably dismiss the need for this, and still let you charge people for the hardware, and if you wanted to, split the charge of the bandwidth between the users, at cost price.

    I'd be happy to allocate some server space and an ip address to host a site for a wan in ireland. If some people would like to contribute, I could set up sections for each community wan, as well as a message board, e.t.c. :)

    Also, I've just ordered 4 of the galaxy tv antennas from australia. They're AUS$15 each, and its costing AUS$75 to ship them here. Amazingly good value at £60 inc shipping for 4 antennas. :)

    Here are some other prices; http://consume.net/buy

    A brand new 20db gain directional antenna designed for wan costs around £75 excluding shipping in australia.


  • Options
    #46
    yellum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,025 ✭✭✭yellum


    Brendan,
    You seem to be the most clued in person as regards whats needed. Can you recommend what gear to get, cards, antennas, wiring etc. Is Australia the cheapest place to get the hardware ?

    As regards the website. I think this is a good idea a very good idea. Maybe there should be a form on it that people can fill in which will upload their details to the website. Might be easier then to find someone nearby to link to without having to trawl through months of archives on a mailing list.

    If you had a some sort of register too of people that wish to buy cheap hardware a group discount could be negotiated if the number of interested partys is high enough.

    I may be wrong but I think people are reluctant to jump in because of uncertainty rather than cost. The only public working wireless lan at the moment that I know of is the wapprofit.com one in Killarney. Does anyone know of other wireless lans ?


  • Options
    #47
    bkehoe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭bkehoe


    Hi,
    Yep, Australia is probably the cheapest, with the US coming in second. Many of the antenna companies are, or started off in australia because MMDS tv was big there till satellite came in.

    I beleive that the Lucent wavelan/orinico (sp?) cards, or clones (such as Elsa Airlancer), and the Compaq WL2xx cards would be the best choices. The compaq is supposed to have a higher output than the Lucents, but most people use the lucents, due to driver, and third party support, e.t.c. All the cards can be got from dabs.com (works out a little cheaper than from australia due to shipping; you could get 1000 cards from dabs and still only pay £20 for shipping ;))

    The best choice for antennas would of course be ones designed for it. The galaxy antennas which I'm getting, when modified should give approx 15db gain, whereas a proper one from Pacific Satellite for around £75 would give 20db, and need no modding.

    Cable is expensive, and 20 meters (from australia) costs approx £60.

    You also need a pigtail adapter to connect from the wireless card to the larger cable. They cost approx £25 from australia.

    If everyone who is definatly interested could say so for definate, I'll try to get a quote, including shipping for a bulk purchase.

    For the following kit:
    Compaq WL210 PCI
    20db gain directional antenna
    10M of cable
    1 pigtail adapter
    Cost = £300 inc VAT EXCLUDING shipping (which I estimate to be around £60 for 5 - 10 day air).

    So just lets say £375 to be sure, for each home setup.

    If a PC Card is used, the cost is around £50 less.

    I'd hope to get discount on stuff like shipping if a few orders were sent in the one package.

    BTW, 20KG is the max weight per package.

    I'll get a website set up either some evening this week, or at the weekend, where people can enter their location, see if anyone is nearby, and so on, as well as a dedicated message board if anyone wants it??

    Brendan


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    #48
    pencil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 606 ✭✭✭pencil


    I'll get a website set up either some evening this week, or at the weekend, where people can enter their location, see if anyone is nearby, and so on, as well as a dedicated message board if anyone wants it??

    Good stuff Brendan.


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    #49
    fixer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 555 ✭✭✭fixer


    I am loving this idea. I love new tech projects, and miss my days in San Francisco where a lot of these hardware hacks are coming from. I sent email to some of my old friends, namely CLiff Skolnick who is quite involved with the Bay Area Wireless Users Group. I'll get his current recommendations for hardware.

    Also, I've been doing my internet programming at The Internet Exchange off the Western Rd, and the owner here is interested in this idea as well. They are also associated with the Web Workshop or somesuch name, next to The Long Valley (don't know that street name, but between Oliver Plunket & Patrick Streets). Those might be two good bases to start from, since they already have a high-speed line in each, roof access and power.

    We could also approach any other businesses with high-speed lines - especially since a lot of the heavy usage would be after work for most of us, when the business's high speed connection lies dormant.

    If we were to buy a pre-made solution from Lucent, there's this: http://www.lucent.com/press/0198/980126.nsb.html at $3k USD suggested retail price. Not a great solution...but a few hacked up Airport's with sntennas probably won't give us the performance we want/need.


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    #50
    HaVoC
    Registered Users Posts: 261 ✭✭HaVoC


    I am from cork too but i live 16 miles from the city . Whats the range from the base station to any user ?


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    #51
    SkepticOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    Originally posted by fixer
    Also, I've been doing my internet programming at The Internet Exchange off the Western Rd, and the owner here is interested in this idea as well. They are also associated with the Web Workshop or somesuch name, next to The Long Valley (don't know that street name, but between Oliver Plunket & Patrick Streets). Those might be two good bases to start from, since they already have a high-speed line in each, roof access and power.

    We could also approach any other businesses with high-speed lines - especially since a lot of the heavy usage would be after work for most of us, when the business's high speed connection lies dormant.
    This is very interesting! Another group people might like to get in touch with might be the MIT MediaLab Europe. These people are very aware of the internet access situation in Ireland. They probably have rooftop access in the Guinness Hop Store and might be interested in linking up with libraries and schools. They might even be interested in funding part of the project.

    Is anyone in Dublin interested in meeting up and discussing these ideas?


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    #52
    yellum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,025 ✭✭✭yellum


    Originally posted by fixer
    ...... The Internet Exchange off the Western Rd, and the owner here is interested in this idea as well. They are also associated with the Web Workshop or somesuch name, next to The Long Valley (don't know that street name, but between Oliver Plunket & Patrick Streets).

    Webworkhouse http://www.webworkhouse.com/
    8 Winthrop street. Very near the GPO and down from McDonalds.


    Those might be two good bases to start from, since they already have a high-speed line in each, roof access and power.


    Well the one off the Western Rd is a one story building with high buildings surrounding it. You might and I street might, be able to get one of the pub landlords to allow you to have an antenna on their building.

    I haven't really looked at the height of the one in Winthrop street. Call down and climb up on the roof and let us know what you can see !


    We could also approach any other businesses with high-speed lines - especially since a lot of the heavy usage would be after work for most of us, when the business's high speed connection lies dormant.


    Not a bad idea. We would need to heavily stress the tough security measures we'll implement to prevent damage being done to their network and damage being done to someone elses network through their own.

    Is NetHouseGames coming down to Cork too ? Maybe they'd like to also help out ? :)

    Originally posted by HaVoC

    I am from cork too but i live 16 miles from the city . Whats the range from the base station to any user ?

    Not really that far, maybe 12km with perfect line of sight and very directional antennas. Where are you living exactly as a hop might be able to happen from someone half as far out.


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    #53
    bkehoe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭bkehoe


    yellum, a base station with say a 12db gain omnidirectional antenna and a client with a 20db antenna and a card like the compaq should have no problems up to 30KM with a perfect LOS. Maybe around 20KM if passing over some trees, as the signal 'bends' down as it goes towards the middle.

    yellum, I assume you will be in charge of the cork wireless setup (info gathering for website). I was considering registering some domain (suggestions please), probably not a .ie as they're a lot more expensive than a .com .org, e.t.c. Most wireless lans use a .org to symbolise that they're non profit. If a domain is registered, I could set up sub domains e.g. cork.domain.org, wexford.domain.org and so on.

    I've been working out some things, and I beleive a link from the Blackstairs to the Comeragh mountains could be possible, as they're so high, thus allowing the signal to travel further. Would be great to be able to say that people in wexford can tranfer files to people in waterford and cork for free, ehh?

    Brendan


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    #54
    fixer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 555 ✭✭✭fixer


    yellum, I was thinking we could always run a pole up and put the antenna on top to be the highest point around...I'll poke around outside here and see what's what...

    I was going to order a Linksys BEFW11S4 for $199USD, but they do not have any external antenna attachments at this time. It would be fine for a local area (100m indoors, 300m outdoors).

    I might hold off and buy an Orinco AP-1000 and yagi antenna...I know I'll be getting dsl or powernet or beam as soon as I get settled into a more long-term house...


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    #55
    hudson806
    Registered Users Posts: 199 ✭✭hudson806


    Originally posted by SkepticOne

    Is anyone in Dublin interested in meeting up and discussing these ideas?


    Hmm, I'd have to say yes - it sounds like an interesting project. There has to be potential to buy a little bit of one of the business 2mb circuits aout there.


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    #56
    rymus
    Registered Users Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭rymus


    Id be very very wary about having anything to do with the webworkhouse. It would be hard enough trying to convince Dave (the owner) to setup a trial node there. Then when its successful, knowing him he'd look to get rid of the original people involved in the project and claim it for his own. (basically fu<k the whole thing up). He's like that. I'm sure theres better and taller buildings around. for example, the R & H Hall tower on the docks. very tall indeed :)


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    #57
    SkepticOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    Originally posted by hudson806
    Hmm, I'd have to say yes - it sounds like an interesting project. There has to be potential to buy a little bit of one of the business 2mb circuits aout there.
    Great stuff. A couple of more people from here and we can chose a venue/date/time. Then we can post to the WAN Dublin list. I think you need a meeting in the real world to establish consensus and get things kick started.


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    #58
    Ivan
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 4,560 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ivan


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31656

    I've just started a post on this subject, although its more relevant to Carlow area, but ye can all look into it.

    Ivan
    --- Oih, Over here, look at me!
    ---Errmmm, no...I'm down here m8!


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    #59
    fixer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 555 ✭✭✭fixer


    Here's a basic layout for the ISP equipment we have to sell. You can scale up or down depending on how many users and the coverage areas you think you might need. This will at least give you a good idea of what you are looking at for costs for both CPE and POP installations. If you have any questions you can email me back direct, Pete doesn't really handle this kinda stuff.


    At your POP you will need the Lucent Central Office Router unit with a pcmcia card and 15dB omni amplified antenna kit. This will allow you to
    connect 31 clients directly to your POP, they will all have bandwidth control and this would be acceptable for up to 5 miles from your POP. Also
    connected to your COR you can support 40 Remote Office Routers, the ROR can be used to connect other LANs to you ISP and also can be used for remote access points. Basically what you do is install a directional antenna with one pcmcia card pointing back to the COR and have a second pcmcia card connected to another omni antenna. This will allow you to support up to 40 additional clients without bandwidth control. But you will be able to
    control the link back to the COR and only allow so much bandwidth to get through to the clients on the other end. If there is only one client on the
    other end on the system at that time they will get all the bandwidth that you have given to the ROR on that link.


    Here are the prices for what you will need:


    COR / POP
    1 x Central Office Router - $1102
    1 x 11Mb pcmcia card - $119.20
    1 x 15dB Omni antenna amplified - $524


    Each client that is connected directly to the POP / COR
    1 x Lucent Internet Client Bandwidth software - $76
    1 x 11Mb pcmcia card - $119.20
    1 x ISA / PCI Adapter card - $55.20
    1 x Directional antenna kit ($180 - 232) depends on distance , yagi
    good for up to 1 mile, 19dB grid good up to 3 miles, 24 db grid up to 5
    miles


    Each ROR (for LAN support Businesses)
    1 x Remote Office Router - $907
    1 x 11Mb pcmcia card - $119.20
    1 x Directional antenna kit, same as above, for distances above 5
    miles you will need an amplified antenna kit $520-650


    Each ROR (for Remote access Point)
    Need what is listed above in the ROR section in addition to below
    1 x 11Mb pcmcia card (additional)
    1 x 15dB omni antenna amplified


    Each Client that will link into the ROR as a remote access point
    will need
    1 x 11Mb pcmcia card - $119.20
    1 x ISA / PCI Adapter card - $55.20
    1 x Directional antenna kit ($180 - 232) depends on distance , yagi
    good for up to 1 mile, 19dB grid good up to 3 miles, 24 db grid up to 5
    miles


    Jamie Cassano
    Senior Account Manager/Technical Support
    Hyperlink Technologies, Inc.
    561-995-2256
    www.hyperlinktech.com


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    #60
    rymus
    Registered Users Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭rymus


    fantastic! How nice it is to see prices posted :) Bandwidth control too.. 'nifty' bit of kit that router!


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    #61
    fixer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 555 ✭✭✭fixer


    that was all just a cut-n-paste from an email I sent to HyperLinkTech - all the US wireless hackers I've talked to recommend these guys as the hottest **** for radio & wireless technology. they tend to be more up on things than the Lucent guys themselves...


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