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Late Iron Age and Roman Ireland project (LIARI)

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  • 31-07-2014 9:13am
    #1
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Freestone Hill in Kilkenny was the subject of an intensive geophysical survey earlier in July. There is a short interview with Cóilín Ó'Drisceoil and Jackie Cahill Wilson at around 7 minutes here -
    http://www.irishtv.ie/kilkenny-matters-9/
    Tagged:


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    #2
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Romanised-Britons might be better term than "Romans", still very interesting.


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    #3
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Romanised-Britons might be better term than "Romans", still very interesting.

    Traditionally yes but isotope analysis may yet upset that way of thinking.


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    #4
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    slowburner wrote: »
    Traditionally yes but isotope analysis may yet upset that way of thinking.

    The problem I have with "isotype analysis" is that it changes every generation. For example both myself and my son would have an "Irish isotype profile" however my OH would have a filipino one, given she was born and brought up there.

    To go back to this example, a Roman born in Rome and brought up there for first 20 years moves to Britain, there he marries another Roman and has a son, this son then moves to "Kilkenny" when he is in his 20's and has a son by another "roman". The isotope evidence would look like this:

    Italy -> Britain -> Ireland

    Let in all three in the example above everyone is "fully Roman" (without any Brythonic or Goidelic admixture).

    It's a usefull tool but it's no magic bullet.


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    #5
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    dubhthach wrote: »
    The problem I have with "isotype analysis" is that it changes every generation. For example both myself and my son would have an "Irish isotype profile" however my OH would have a filipino one, given she was born and brought up there.

    To go back to this example, a Roman born in Rome and brought up there for first 20 years moves to Britain, there he marries another Roman and has a son, this son then moves to "Kilkenny" when he is in his 20's and has a son by another "roman". The isotope evidence would look like this:

    Italy -> Britain -> Ireland

    Let in all three in the example above everyone is "fully Roman" (without any Brythonic or Goidelic admixture).

    It's a usefull tool but it's no magic bullet.

    Let's not overlook that many of the Roman legionaries that were based in Britian, who subsequently married on having served their 25 years and gained full citizenship, came from all over the Roman Empire. Apart from being Romano-British, he could also have been Thracian, Dacian, Syrian, Galician, Frankish, Gaulish, Belgic, Helvetian, Libyan and so on....

    tac


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    #6
    slowburner
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    dubhthach wrote: »
    The problem I have with "isotype analysis" is that it changes every generation. For example both myself and my son would have an "Irish isotype profile" however my OH would have a filipino one, given she was born and brought up there.

    To go back to this example, a Roman born in Rome and brought up there for first 20 years moves to Britain, there he marries another Roman and has a son, this son then moves to "Kilkenny" when he is in his 20's and has a son by another "roman". The isotope evidence would look like this:

    Italy -> Britain -> Ireland

    Let in all three in the example above everyone is "fully Roman" (without any Brythonic or Goidelic admixture).

    It's a usefull tool but it's no magic bullet.

    Indeed.
    The point is though that the remains from Freestone hill were always presumed to be from an 'Irish' person who adopted Roman ways.
    As far as I know, the analysis has established that this person did not come from Ireland.
    That fact alone will doubtless upset traditional dogma.


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    #7
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    slowburner wrote: »
    Indeed.
    The point is though that the remains from Freestone hill were always presumed to be from an 'Irish' person who adopted Roman ways.
    As far as I know, the analysis has established that this person did not come from Ireland.
    That fact alone will doubtless upset traditional dogma.

    Well the Laighin do appear to have links across the sea into Wales, quite probable that they fought there as Roman foederati. As a word it's ethmolygoy isn't known but there is some discussion that it might actually be a borrowing of Latin legio (Legion). Going by old Irish accounts of course the Laighin were a "federation" of three groups.

    What's interesting is that the Haplogroup R1b-Z255 that appears connected to several of the distinctly Laighin surnames (Byrne, O'Toole, Kavanagh, Murphy -- even Fitzpatrick which is probably of Osraighe of Kilkenny) appears to have a wider Irish sea distribution.

    laighin01.jpg


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    #8
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Our modern concept of Leinster is very different from the historical Laighin (Leinster). Basically it only consisted of modern day counties:
    Wexford, Wicklow, Dublin (south of the liffey), Kildare (excluding Carbery), Laois, Eastern Offaly and Kilkenny was technically a seperate "sub-kingdom" (Osraí -- Osraighe , thence english "Ossory") that owed allegiance either to Munster (alot of time) or to Leinster -- and whoses "King's" would play one off against the other.


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    #9
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    dubhthach wrote: »
    The problem I have with "isotype analysis" is that it changes every generation. For example both myself and my son would have an "Irish isotype profile" however my OH would have a filipino one, given she was born and brought up there.

    To go back to this example, a Roman born in Rome and brought up there for first 20 years moves to Britain, there he marries another Roman and has a son, this son then moves to "Kilkenny" when he is in his 20's and has a son by another "roman". The isotope evidence would look like this:

    Italy -> Britain -> Ireland

    Let in all three in the example above everyone is "fully Roman" (without any Brythonic or Goidelic admixture).

    It's a usefull tool but it's no magic bullet.
    Another problem is that people’s isotopic signature reflects diet and water i.e. the bioavailable strontium not the geological strontium. People eat plants and animals not rocks. Most of these studies never bothered to examine bioavailable strontium. In fact I don't know any example that has in Ireland. They have relied on low-resolution geology maps which give a distorted picture. Its remarkable how some of these studies have got through peer review. Strontium isotopic ratios are also distorted by the effects of sea spray which can be strong in some areas.


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