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Lions 2013 players impressing at RWC

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    #122
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    I wouldn't mind Geechs as coach again. He did a superb job the last time.


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    #123
    Benny Cake
    Registered Users Posts: 3,143 ✭✭✭Benny Cake


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    There is not even the smallest chance of that happening.

    Which part? On the plane or the captaincy?


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    #124
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,263 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Captaincy. He'll be on the plane, though I wouldn't be surprised if he's not starting in the test team. Currently he would be, but there are a lot of good locks in the home nations at the moment.


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    #125
    Cpt_Blackbeard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Captaincy. He'll be on the plane, though I wouldn't be surprised if he's not starting in the test team. Currently he would be, but there are a lot of good locks in the home nations at the moment.

    I think we just criminally under rate POC. He is recognised as (one of) the best locks in the world anywhere you go but, we still pine after the "modern" lock like the blonde Scotsman or the English thug.

    2years is a huge amount of time in rugby but, if we were to pick the Lion's captain now, it would be Warburton or POC. I'd go for the welshman just because he looks like a future great of the game - We will look back as him being the man being the revival of Welsh rugby.


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    #126
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind Geechs as coach again. He did a superb job the last time.

    Marc Lievremont FTW. The DVD of the tour would be hilarious.


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    #127
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,263 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »
    I think we just criminally under rate POC. He is recognised as (one of) the best locks in the world anywhere you go but, we still pine after the "modern" lock like the blonde Scotsman or the English thug.

    2years is a huge amount of time in rugby but, if we were to pick the Lion's captain now, it would be Warburton or POC. I'd go for the welshman just because he looks like a future great of the game - We will look back as him being the man being the revival of Welsh rugby.

    It would be Warburton. I think we're deluding ourselves if we think it would be POC. We pine for a modern lock because we desperately need one and for all POC's attributes (and he has many) he is seriously deficient in certain parts of the game. Admittedly this would be less of an issue with someone like Touhy partnering him instead of DOC.

    I don't think he is rated as one of the best locks in the world in many places either. I certainly have never gotten that impression. Players like Botha and Matfield were always ranked ahead of him. Rightly imo.


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    #128
    eigrod
    Registered Users Posts: 7,592 ✭✭✭eigrod


    Much as I love him, I can't see Paul O' Connell playing for the Lions in 2013. Given his age and the injuries he has endured, he'll be doing well to be still in the Munster team by then.


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    #129
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,138 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    eigrod wrote: »
    Much as I love him, I can't see Paul O' Connell playing for the Lions in 2013. Given his age and the injuries he has endured, he'll be doing well to be still in the Munster team by then.

    The Lions tour is at the end of next season! At the moment he is well ahead of DOC, MOD, Ryan, and Nagle. I can't see any of them combining to be better than POC + 1 next season.

    If you look at the second rows knocking about at the moment who'll be playing internationally next season or thereabouts you've Gray, Kellock, Lawes, Palmer, Deacon, Wynn Jones, Davies, Charteris and then the Irish contingent of POC, Ryan, Toner, and Tuohy. I've taken a bit of a leap of faith with the Irish guys here.

    Kellock, Palmer, Deacon, and Charteris I don't think will make the Lions and Davies I'm not sure of. That leaves Gray, Lawes, and Wynn Jones plus our guys.

    I don't think he'll captain them but he's still in with a great chance of going on tour with em.


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    #130
    Teg Veece
    Registered Users Posts: 550 ✭✭✭Teg Veece


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    There is not even the smallest chance of that happening.

    You'd make a very bad bookie.


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    #131
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,263 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Teg Veece wrote: »
    You'd make a very bad bookie.

    Perhaps, but I'd imagine the odds would be in the hundreds for POC to be captain. It's ridiculously unlikely.


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    #132
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    I'd offer 20/1 on POC being captain.


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    #133
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    Podge is right. It's very, very unlikely that POC will be captain. He had his shot. Aside from MJ, I don't think there has ever been a two time captain. First and foremost, your captain has to be guaranteed his place in the side. POC isn't unless he has a huge 18 months and ups his influence on games to the level it was pre injury. He's still playing very well but I don't think he's playing to the level he once was and there's no shame in that given how good he was and the injuries he has had. The one thing he has in his favour is that the majority of the young locks coming through all specialise at 4. Gray, Davies and Lawes all play at 4 although they should be versatile to move. People laugh at the guy constantly but Tom Palmer has had an excellent 2011 if anyone has bothered to watch him. At this moment in time, it's difficult to say who will be captain although you would have to think Warburton is definitely clear frontrunner given his performance on and off the field in recent times as well as the outright lack of opensides in the 4 nations at the moment.

    If you go through all the captains of the nations and big teams it's very hard to identify a player that you could say would almost certainly be starting aside from Warburton. Tindall, Moody, Hartley, POC, BOD, Kellock, Rees...that's about it. Every other captain in the Pro12 and AP are either foreign or don't have a hope of making the plane.


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    #134
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    William Hill is offering the following: http://sports.williamhill.com/bet/ro/betting/g/1182176/2013-British-Lions-Captain.html

    Some fairly ridiculous odds there just to cover themselves. BOD probably won't be on the tour and is second favourite. If I was to look at outside bets I'd look at Hartley or Rees. The odds on the frontrunners there are terrible!


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    #135
    Fireball07
    Registered Users Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭Fireball07


    GerM wrote: »
    Podge is right. It's very, very unlikely that POC will be captain. He had his shot. Aside from MJ, I don't think there has ever been a two time captain. First and foremost, your captain has to be guaranteed his place in the side. POC isn't unless he has a huge 18 months and ups his influence on games to the level it was pre injury. He's still playing very well but I don't think he's playing to the level he once was and there's no shame in that given how good he was and the injuries he has had. The one thing he has in his favour is that the majority of the young locks coming through all specialise at 4. Gray, Davies and Lawes all play at 4 although they should be versatile to move. People laugh at the guy constantly but Tom Palmer has had an excellent 2011 if anyone has bothered to watch him. At this moment in time, it's difficult to say who will be captain although you would have to think Warburton is definitely clear frontrunner given his performance on and off the field in recent times as well as the outright lack of opensides in the 4 nations at the moment.

    If you go through all the captains of the nations and big teams it's very hard to identify a player that you could say would almost certainly be starting aside from Warburton. Tindall, Moody, Hartley, POC, BOD, Kellock, Rees...that's about it. Every other captain in the Pro12 and AP are either foreign or don't have a hope of making the plane.

    That's a point in his favour... If something happens to Warburton, you never know.. It's a year and a half away, he could get injured, lose form. And POC could up his performance to make himself a starting lock. I wouldn't write it off completely. Anything could happen in that time.


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    #136
    Cpt_Blackbeard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Perhaps, but I'd imagine the odds would be in the hundreds for POC to be captain. It's ridiculously unlikely.

    Who would you put in the pecking order ahead of him?


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    #137
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,263 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Warburton is obviously the prime candidate. Unless he's injured or has a stunning drop off in form he'll be ahead of POC anyway. POC is a good option in and of himself, but he's already had the captaincy once and I feel that's going to count against him. Johnson is, as far as I know, the only player to get the captaincy twice and POC is just no Johnson. Rather importantly, Johnson also won his first attempt.

    We're also talking 18 months from now. O'Connell is already older then Johnson was at his second captaincy. He'll be 33 for the next Lions tour - that's already reaching the end of a lot of player's careers. It's infinitely more likely that some player will seriously put his hand up over the next 18 months then it is that POC will continue his current vein of form for that long imo.


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    #138
    Benny Cake
    Registered Users Posts: 3,143 ✭✭✭Benny Cake


    Warburton is a shoe in TBH, however I would have POC second favourite and anybody sh*ting on about the odds on POC being in the hundreds should check a few bookies......


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    #139
    eigrod
    Registered Users Posts: 7,592 ✭✭✭eigrod


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    The Lions tour is at the end of next season! At the moment he is well ahead of DOC, MOD, Ryan, and Nagle. I can't see any of them combining to be better than POC + 1 next season.

    If you look at the second rows knocking about at the moment who'll be playing internationally next season or thereabouts you've Gray, Kellock, Lawes, Palmer, Deacon, Wynn Jones, Davies, Charteris and then the Irish contingent of POC, Ryan, Toner, and Tuohy. I've taken a bit of a leap of faith with the Irish guys here.

    Kellock, Palmer, Deacon, and Charteris I don't think will make the Lions and Davies I'm not sure of. That leaves Gray, Lawes, and Wynn Jones plus our guys.

    I don't think he'll captain them but he's still in with a great chance of going on tour with em.

    It's 19 months away. I would be surprised if he makes it to be honest.


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    #140
    Benny Cake
    Registered Users Posts: 3,143 ✭✭✭Benny Cake


    eigrod wrote: »
    It's 19 months away. I would be surprised if he makes it to be honest.

    It amazes me that the bookies have POC 2nd or 3rd favourite for CAPTAINCY, yet theres people here reckon he wont even be on the plane!!! Trust me, assuming POC is alive in 2013, he'll be on the tour.... Unreal :confused:


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    #141
    jacothelad
    Registered Users Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »
    I think we just criminally under rate POC. He is recognised as (one of) the best locks in the world anywhere you go but, we still pine after the "modern" lock like the blonde Scotsman or the English thug.

    2years is a huge amount of time in rugby but, if we were to pick the Lion's captain now, it would be Warburton or POC. I'd go for the welshman just because he looks like a future great of the game - We will look back as him being the man being the revival of Welsh rugby.
    Totally agree. Lawes is a filthy brute even in an increasingly brutish game. With a bit of luck he will get enough bans to keep him off the field. Even leaving aside his thuggery he ain't that good.
    CatFromHue wrote: »
    The Lions tour is at the end of next season! At the moment he is well ahead of DOC, MOD, Ryan, and Nagle. I can't see any of them combining to be better than POC + 1 next season.

    If you look at the second rows knocking about at the moment who'll be playing internationally next season or thereabouts you've Gray, Kellock, Lawes, Palmer, Deacon, Wynn Jones, Davies, Charteris and then the Irish contingent of POC, Ryan, Toner, and Tuohy. I've taken a bit of a leap of faith with the Irish guys here.

    Kellock, Palmer, Deacon, and Charteris I don't think will make the Lions and Davies I'm not sure of. That leaves Gray, Lawes, and Wynn Jones plus our guys.

    I don't think he'll captain them but he's still in with a great chance of going on tour with em.
    GerM wrote: »
    William Hill is offering the following: http://sports.williamhill.com/bet/ro/betting/g/1182176/2013-British-Lions-Captain.html

    Some fairly ridiculous odds there just to cover themselves. BOD probably won't be on the tour and is second favourite. If I was to look at outside bets I'd look at Hartley or Rees. The odds on the frontrunners there are terrible!
    If it was Hartley I'd not bother my ar5e watching them.
    Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »
    Who would you put in the pecking order ahead of him?
    No one apart from Warburton.


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    #142
    PhatPiggins
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭PhatPiggins


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    I'd offer 20/1 on POC being captain.

    €50 on that please


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    #143
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,263 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Benny Cake wrote: »
    Warburton is a shoe in TBH, however I would have POC second favourite and anybody sh*ting on about the odds on POC being in the hundreds should check a few bookies......

    His odds will lengthen considerably over the next year I imagine. I didn't realise any bookies would have odds on him at the moment, but all the odds are ridiculously short just to be on the safe side. ffs BOD is second favourite with one of the bookies. It's too early to know much, but POC is only likely to go downhill. I think he'll be on the plane, but not a hope he'll be captain.


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    #144
    PhatPiggins
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭PhatPiggins


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    His odds will lengthen considerably over the next year I imagine. I didn't realise any bookies would have odds on him at the moment, but all the odds are ridiculously short just to be on the safe side. ffs BOD is second favourite with one of the bookies. It's too early to know much, but POC is only likely to go downhill. I think he'll be on the plane, but not a hope he'll be captain.

    I'll take €50 with you as well or some suitable humiliation to be decided on later if you'd prefer.


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    #145
    sock puppet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »
    Who would you put in the pecking order ahead of him?

    It's stupid asking that question now when only one of the teams involved even knows who their captain will be next year (though O'Connell will almost certainly captain us).


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    #146
    jacothelad
    Registered Users Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    If Wales retreat to their usual mid table 6ns mediocrity or worse, what price Warburton then?


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    #147
    Cpt_Blackbeard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    jacothelad wrote: »
    Totally agree. Lawes is a filthy brute even in an increasingly brutish game. With a bit of luck he will get enough bans to keep him off the field. Even leaving aside his thuggery he ain't that good.

    Thug is one of the calmest words I could use to describe him. Being an important member of the England "Elite" squad, he'll never serve any very lengthy bans.


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    #148
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »
    jacothelad wrote: »
    Totally agree. Lawes is a filthy brute even in an increasingly brutish game. With a bit of luck he will get enough bans to keep him off the field. Even leaving aside his thuggery he ain't that good.

    Thug is one of the calmest words I could use to describe him. Being an important member of the England "Elite" squad, he'll never serve any very lengthy bans.

    What had he done so far to deserve a lengthy ban?


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    #149
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    sock puppet wrote: »
    It's stupid asking that question now when only one of the teams involved even knows who their captain will be next year (though O'Connell will almost certainly captain us).

    The whole issue of captaincy of the Lions is completely up in the air; it has to be someone who is guaranteed a starting spot in the test team. If O'Connell is up against Wyn Jones, Gray, Lawes and a number of others, he'll be up against it as they may be inferior players but they are all a good bit younger than him and these games are 18 months away.
    Likewise O'Driscoll, as second favourite, will have to come back from his injury, prove he's back to test level and show that he's still ahead of the alternatives.

    All in all, if Warburton keeps going as he has so far, he'll be captain. I don't doubt that O'Connell will be in the squad but I don't think he'll be captain.


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    #150
    d-gal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭d-gal


    Between POC and warburton. POC will be around next WC and as Irish captain I reckon. Amazing work ethic (same as thorn and shaw).
    Can see Gray and POC in the 2nd row. Think both of these are an absolute mile ahead of lawes, jones and charteris. Both are playing unbelievably and consistenly well.
    BOD will have a job making the 15 IMO. Davies and Williams are really impressive at 13. A younger BOD would kill them but a slower (and slower again in 18months) will find it difficult


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    #151
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    Just thinking, I wonder will the fact that POC was a losing captain last time out count against him? And was this a factor in BOD not getting the nod in South Africa?

    Martin Johnson is the only man ever to captain them twice, his first effort was as a reasonably young guy (mid 20s IIRC) and he went out and beat South Africa when he was still some way short of reaching his peak as a player.

    BOD & POC might have been great Lions captain, as reports suggest, but the fact is that they presided over losing sides (although obviously BOD's on-field contribution was cut short in NZ). They don't have time on their side like Johnson did between 97 and 01.


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