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The future of Free Travel Passes being flagged again

245

Comments

  • #32
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,287 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Kurz wrote: »
    Free travel passes for elderly and disabled people? You lot are angry about this? Jesus christ...

    Its the definition of 'disabled' which is crucial.
    It appears for example that 'heroin dependancy' is considered a qualifying disability for this scheme.

    No-one is arguing that the scheme should be withdrawn for say a person in a wheelchair.


  • #33
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 12,956 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    the_syco wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a "free pass" gets onto the bus, is there a log kept for how many "free pass" people get on, and then is that charged by the provider from the government? If this is so, then yes, it would cost the government.


    No, we're angry at the amount of scumbags who get free passes that take up the seats of paying passengers during peak times.

    A count is kept by the travel company of passengers either by a button on the ticket machine on city buses or via a code at train stations if presented at a ticket box/seller; I'd presume Bus Eireann use a mix of both schemes. On Luas, it's show your pass as needed so they have no accurate head count.

    The DSP doesn't pay per journey, a subvention is given to those company's who accept DSP passes in lieu so in effect it's paying for DSP passes as if they are buying annual passes for those entitled to them. In practice, it's CIE companies who receive almost all of the subvention. The amount they cough up for free travel passes per head works out as a fraction of the cost to purchase same annual pass for CIE, Luas and other services within the scheme, where one to place a value on what one gets in a DSP pass.

    The argument then becomes a question of whether the subvention paid out is fair compensation given either the amount of passes issued or journey's made under the scheme. If so you leave it be but if not then how do you deal with it. Do you curtail access and entitlement to the scheme as it stands, do you adjust it's operational hours or conditions imposed on passengers, do you increase the subvention paid out to the scheme or even a combination of all three. Given the level of fraud and misuse suspected in the scheme along with decreasing tax intake to pay for it, something surely has to give and give soon.


  • #34
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,584 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Kurz wrote: »
    Free travel passes for elderly and disabled people? You lot are angry about this? Jesus christ...

    No - read peoples responses properly - people are not opposed to the scheme per se, we all agree there needs to be one for the elderly and the disabled, just that the current scheme is not sustainable in it's current form and needs to be modified.


  • #35
    gbob
    Registered Users Posts: 522 ✭✭✭gbob


    It's about time the free travel scheme was overhauled, the amount of obvious fraud being carried out by passholders is shocking. And I don't just mean the scumbags, completely respectable pensioners that wouldn't even consider stealing a newspaper, claiming son's as spouses, companion pass holders bringing random strangers on their passes, lending of passes to friends and even one regular old woman repeatedly selling her pass on the bus for 20 euro. ENFORCEMENT IS A FARCE !


  • #36
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    Pass holders should pay something, even if it's just 50c for their journey

    People often don't respect what they get for free

    It's might not stop the messing from our poor drug addled citizens getting disability but it won't make it any worse and it's worth a trial


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  • #37
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    ArmaniJeanss wrote: »
    Its the definition of 'disabled' which is crucial.
    It appears for example that 'heroin dependancy' is considered a qualifying disability for this scheme.

    No-one is arguing that the scheme should be withdrawn for say a person in a wheelchair.

    Heroin dependency is not a qualifying "condition" but most heroin addicts and alcoholics and other nasty types that cause trouble on the streets and wherever they go have under-lying mental health issues which render them "disabled".


  • #38
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    Pass holders should pay something, even if it's just 50c for their journey

    People often don't respect what they get for free

    It's might not stop the messing from our poor drug addled citizens getting disability but it won't make it any worse and it's worth a trial

    Proper enforcement of the bye-laws already in place is what is needed instead of punishing legitimate innocent and genuine travel pass holders.

    any charge is a joke as we all know the people we want off the buses and trains will not pay and will still be there injecting their heroin down the back of the bus/train and falling asleep on the luas and urinating on the seats!


  • #39
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    Strangely enough after contributing to this thread earlier, I was travelling on a Bus Eireann service from Gorey. For the first time ever, in my experience, an inspector boarded the bus at Arklow to check tickets. He became suspicious of the young girl seated opposite me who produced a Free Travel Pass and after a short exchange during which she could not reproduce the signature on the pass to his satisfaction, confiscated it. Where are these guys for the rest of the time?


  • #40
    gbob
    Registered Users Posts: 522 ✭✭✭gbob


    bmaxi wrote: »
    Where are these guys for the rest of the time?

    Delighted the pass was taken off her, and there are FOUR dedicated revenue inspectors for the entire BE network, yes FOUR !


  • #41
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    gbob wrote: »
    Delighted the pass was taken off her, and there are FOUR dedicated revenue inspectors for the entire BE network, yes FOUR !
    There needs to be at least 20 working two shifts going it alone in rural areas and in pairs nearer urban areas where they might expect more trouble.


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  • #42
    gbob
    Registered Users Posts: 522 ✭✭✭gbob


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    There needs to be at least 20 working two shifts going it alone in rural areas and in pairs nearer urban areas where they might expect more trouble.

    There was plans to increase the numbers a couple of years back but "Due to the current economic ............... blah blah blah"


  • #43
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    Give me a commission rate for every fraudalent pass I seize and I'd do it without a salary.
    I'm confident I'd make good money

    I'll probably get stabbed within three days though :(


  • #44
    gbob
    Registered Users Posts: 522 ✭✭✭gbob


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    Give me a commission rate for every fraudalent pass I seize and I'd do it without a salary

    That's almost exactly what I said to the powers that be.


  • #45
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    So instead of dealing with the problem of all these addicts, drunks, homeless and roma beggars and other troublemakers and saving a fortune people have become so hardened by the current situation they would prefer to see their parents, grandparents and all those we know with disabilities like blindness, amputees, Autism cerebral palsy, down syndrome, epilepsy, HIV, multiple sclerosis, muscular dystrophy, spina bifida, traumatic brain injury etc lose a small benefit they have which costs the state very little at the end of the day?


  • #46
    gbob
    Registered Users Posts: 522 ✭✭✭gbob


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    So instead of dealing with the problem of all these addicts, drunks, homeless and roma beggars and other troublemakers and saving a fortune people have become so hardened by the current situation they would prefer to see their parents, grandparents and all those we know with disabilities like blindness, amputees, Autism cerebral palsy, down syndrome, epilepsy, HIV, multiple sclerosis, muscular dystrophy, spina bifida, traumatic brain injury etc lose a small benefit they have which costs the state very little at the end of the day?

    Absolutely not, i'm completely in favour of those that have a genuine need of this service continuing to receive it. The problem as I see it is the widespread level of abuse and therefore loss of revenue for the service providers, which unfortunately has to subsidized by the tax payer.


  • #47
    flutered
    Registered Users Posts: 6,666 ✭✭✭flutered


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Does anyone remember paying 48% income tax as well as mad Prsi rates? Or when your mortgage interest was tipping along at 16-18% and when you would be told by the "community welfare officer" to take your 16year old son or daughter out of school and let them get a job(that wasn't there) to help pay the mortgage, all those people are becoming pensioners now and are not going to be short changed! It is not their fault that no "trust fund" was set up. The piper still has to be paid and with several referenda coming up if the government want Ireland inc to survive the pensioners will have to be looked after!

    i am one of these misfortunates, the more i worked the more i paid, in the end i was working seven day a week to keep afloat, i was luckey that i had the seven days, what really fcuked my head was one of the head honchos arrived down from dublin, we got two hours off and were taken to a pub, we were give two pints each, the honcho told us in order for the factory to keep open we had to vote f.f. at the first advailable chance i left, i still have that bitter taste in my mouth.


  • #48
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    gbob wrote: »
    Absolutely not, i'm completely in favour of those that have a genuine need of this service continuing to receive it. The problem as I see it is the widespread level of abuse and therefore loss of revenue for the service providers, which unfortunately has to subsidized by the tax payer.
    I agree that the travel pass needs to be sorted out and soon, but the people who are abusing it and forging passes etc also need to be stopped as they will forge any pass that is provided because there is a lot of money to be made!

    The way to do this is to change the rules of the scheme so that a passport or Gardai ID(not driving licence) must be shown with the travel pass at all times and for extra security a thumb print be placed on all new passes issued, then issue all inspectors with fingerprint readers which can scan and compare with the print on your pass. Also the full pps number needs to be used for all tickets on trains and bus Eireann(would take too long on DB).

    Obviously all worn or torn or partial passes will be confiscated but the users should be given forms and details of how and where to get a replacement if they are entitled to one. also all age action groups and day centres for the disabled and elderly should be informed and given instruction in how to help their clients apply for a replacement pass if theirs is worn or gets confiscated.


  • #49
    gbob
    Registered Users Posts: 522 ✭✭✭gbob


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    The way to do this is to change the rules of the scheme

    That is exactly what I'm hoping for !


  • #50
    TheChrisD
    Registered Users Posts: 4,495 ✭✭✭TheChrisD


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    and for extra security a thumb print be placed on all new passes issued, then issue all inspectors with fingerprint readers which can scan and compare with the print on your pass.

    That's going a bit far now :pac:
    image.png




  • #51
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Changing the terms of the scheme to reduce the cost to the Dept of Social Protection will only hurt the revenue and passenger numbers at the various state transport companies I expect. Each DSP scheme passenger doesn't equate to a fare-paying passenger if a lot of that travel is discretionary. That said, change is needed nonetheless.


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  • #52
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,541 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    the_syco wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a "free pass" gets onto the bus, is there a log kept for how many "free pass" people get on, and then is that charged by the provider from the government? If this is so, then yes, it would cost the government.

    The operators get paid a fixed sum by the Department of Social Protection each year - it bears no resemblance to the actual numbers travelling.


  • #53
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    AngryLips wrote: »
    Changing the terms of the scheme to reduce the cost to the Dept of Social Protection will only hurt the revenue and passenger numbers at the various state transport companies I expect. Each DSP scheme passenger doesn't equate to a fare-paying passenger if a lot of that travel is discretionary. That said, change is needed nonetheless.

    The terms of the Free-Travel Scheme have already been changed.

    Since 2011,funding for the scheme has been capped at 2010 levels.

    This now means that the DSP are not accepting any further applications from Service Providers.

    The main reason why the plain-people are not seeing the ramifications of this cap is the downsizing of the CIE group Road Passenger operations.

    Removing 200 vehicles from the Dublin Bus fleet and rationalizing the Route Structure a lá Network Direct has knock-on effects sometimes not appreciated by the wider audience.

    Substantial revisions are currently under discussion internally in the DSP and it appears the funding situation is somewhat dire.

    What options remain open to allow the DSP to spread this reduced available funding across it's suppliers is open to debate.

    I would suggest an annual cap regarding Mainline Rail availability may emerge,with a certain amount of Free Trips followed by a discounted rate for the remainder.

    Similarly,with the introduction of the DSP Smart Card,it may well possible to allocate Free-Travel resources on a specific basis...IE: A Job-Seeker could have free-travel within a certain time-frame only whilst a Disabled Person could continue to avail of no restrictions Free Travel.

    One thing is absolutely certain,the current Cornflakes Box Pass is nearing the end of it's life,and not a day too soon.

    However,the actual audit process which will see the replacement of genuine CornFlakes Box passes with Chipped Cards,will doubtless cause much grinding of teeth and downright anger amounst a VERY large group of people indeed.

    I for one will be VERY interested in the final tally of returned cardboard vs newly issued plastic,as I contend that it is probably the largest single occurence of everyday DSP fraud in Ireland.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #54
    Jehuty42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Jehuty42


    Taking the bus this morning as I infrequently do when I miss a train(bus can be faster if traffic works out well), I witnessed two separate incidents of older passengers getting very indignant when the driver insisted on asking to see their pass, rather than letting them just walk on. They did both manage to produce passes though.


  • #55
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    The terms of the Free-Travel Scheme have already been changed.
    Not for those with free travel.

    The "conditions of use" have not changed!
    You may use your Free Travel Pass on the transport services listed below at any time.

    Dublin Bus (except Nitelink and special airport buses)
    Bus Éireann (city services)
    Bus Éireann (long distance services)
    Iarnród Éireann
    DART
    LUAS
    Certain private bus and ferry services
    Certain cross-border services between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland
    Certain services within Northern Ireland (This is only available to passholders over age 66 that hold a Senior Smartpass card - See Appendix 3 for further details.)
    http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/SW40/Pages/5WhencanIusemyFreeTravelPass.aspx
    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Since 2011,funding for the scheme has been capped at 2010 levels.

    This now means that the DSP are not accepting any further applications from Service Providers.

    The main reason why the plain-people are not seeing the ramifications of this cap is the downsizing of the CIE group Road Passenger operations.

    Removing 200 vehicles from the Dublin Bus fleet and rationalizing the Route Structure a lá Network Direct has knock-on effects sometimes not appreciated by the wider audience.
    Cutting away the dead wood and serious rationalisation had to be done! It is just a shame that so many pointless and useless management positions have survived the cull.
    Substantial revisions are currently under discussion internally in the DSP and it appears the funding situation is somewhat dire.
    Insider knowledge? You must be in sitting on their laps to know all you know?
    What options remain open to allow the DSP to spread this reduced available funding across it's suppliers is open to debate.
    Staff wages bill can be trimmed down a lot more! it appears to be the largest bill in CIE and especially in Irish Rail.
    I would suggest an annual cap regarding Mainline Rail availability may emerge,with a certain amount of Free Trips followed by a discounted rate for the remainder.

    Similarly,with the introduction of the DSP Smart Card,it may well possible to allocate Free-Travel resources on a specific basis...IE: A Job-Seeker could have free-travel within a certain time-frame only whilst a Disabled Person could continue to avail of no restrictions Free Travel.
    Are you now giving the unemployed free travel?

    Contrary to some imaginative journalism practiced in some reports in different newspapers the unemployed whether they be long or short term unemployed have never recieved free travel passes!
    One thing is absolutely certain,the current Cornflakes Box Pass is nearing the end of it's life,and not a day too soon.
    Agree 110%
    However,the actual audit process which will see the replacement of genuine CornFlakes Box passes with Chipped Cards,will doubtless cause much grinding of teeth and downright anger amounst a VERY large group of people indeed.

    I for one will be VERY interested in the final tally of returned cardboard vs newly issued plastic,as I contend that it is probably the largest single occurence of everyday DSP fraud in Ireland.
    How will it cause grinding of teeth that will be noticable to anyone? IF(i will believe it when it happens) the old passes are replaced and some P&!*K can no longer use their old pass they will pay cash when boarding your bus and you are hardly likely to notice any gnashing or grinding of teeth? Also i cant see those same people being angry at something they were never entitled to being put beyond their use!


  • #56
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Jehuty42 wrote: »
    Taking the bus this morning as I infrequently do when I miss a train(bus can be faster if traffic works out well), I witnessed two separate incidents of older passengers getting very indignant when the driver insisted on asking to see their pass, rather than letting them just walk on. They did both manage to produce passes though.
    Older people are often ashamed of having free travel because they fear being seen by so many as free-loaders and it puts them in the same category as thieves and junkies and homeless alcoholics in many people's eyes! Many of these people worked hard all their lives and reared very large families in poor conditions in Drimnage Crumlin and similar areas all over the city and county in small damp 2 and 3 bedroom houses many with outside toilets.

    The proposed new swipe/smart card will be a godsend for them as they will be able to get on and off the bus or train without anyone knowing their business and being able to label them as wasters!


  • #57
    Jehuty42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Jehuty42


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Also i cant see those same people being angry at something they were never entitled to being put beyond their use!

    I wish I shared your faith in people.


  • #58
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Jehuty42 wrote: »
    I wish I shared your faith in people.
    They may be angry on the inside but i cant see that transferring to them being any more anti-social than many of them currently are:)


  • #59
    Jacknory
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭Jacknory


    Nobody in this country, especially now, should be exempt from paying some contribution to travel beit €.50 or €1....its that straighforward!!


  • #60
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,855 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Once we chip the passes and force a tag-on, we can audit the use. There are several data mining programs that can be used to check fraudulent use.

    ( BTW the same should be done for all season tickets across all modes )


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  • #61
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    trellheim wrote: »
    Once we chip the passes and force a tag-on, we can audit the use. There are several data mining programs that can be used to check fraudulent use.

    ( BTW the same should be done for all season tickets across all modes )
    That will surely not be allowed? would Data protection legislation not protect passengers from this kind of intrusion?


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