Eircom now involved in GBS with towns

viking · 08-12-2004 11:38am #1

Link

Eircom to provide BB via DSL to following towns:
Rathdrum, Co. Wicklow -> 18% - €6,298.20
Crosshaven, Co. Cork -> 20% - €7,568.20

Very interesting...

damien · 08-12-2004 11:47am

Location: Rathdrum, Co. Wicklow

Community Group: Rathdrum Development Association
Service Provider: Eircom
Potential Coverage: 60% of Households in the area
Technology: DSL Solution
Grant Aid (Capital costs): 18% - €6,298.20
Broadband Availability: Within six months of signing grant agreement

Location: Crosshaven, Co. Cork

Community Group: Crosshaven Community Association
Service Provider: Eircom
Potential Coverage: 76%
Technology: DSL solution
Grant Aid (Capital costs): 20% - €7,568.20
Broadband Availability: Six months from date of grant agreement

I thought their DSL solution passed on 80% of lines ? Hmmmm.

viking · 08-12-2004 11:53am

Eircom's DSL trigger levels are now officially a scam:

Rathdrum -> Trigger Level: 372 Current: 32

Crosshaven -> Trigger Level: 500 Current: 13

These towns both fell way short of the trigger levels but as soon as the Government gave them circa €8k they became viable?????

S.C.A.M

Edit: I'm not bitter so congratulations are due to all towns who received funding!

damien · 08-12-2004 12:18pm

Trying to find someone in Crosshaven now that might know about this. Since it was 20% funding it means that the cost of enabling this exchange was €37841 ?

That seems a damned bit cheaper than if someone like Esat were to come in and try this via local loop unbundling.

Still, well done to Crosshaven and the other groups.

Mr_Man · 08-12-2004 2:34pm

Hi Viking,

where did the 32 and 13 figures come from ?

Thanks

M.

viking · 08-12-2004 3:00pm

Mr_Man wrote:

Where did the 32 and 13 figures come from ?

http://dsltrigger.eircom.ie

Put in two local numbers for Rathdrum and Crosshaven.

Viking

Mr_Man · 08-12-2004 3:08pm

Is it possible to view the GBS applications for these towns to see what kind of numbers they list ?

Thanks
M.

spongebob · 08-12-2004 3:41pm

damien.m wrote:

Trying to find someone in Crosshaven now that might know about this. Since it was 20% funding it means that the cost of enabling this exchange was €37841 ?.

Exactly.

Udaras na Gaeltachta paid around €90,000 each for a bundle of exchanges earlier this year so Eircom have dropped their asking by 60% .

As there are 900 exchanges without DSL we can reasonably surmise that an offer of 30K each , €27,000,000 cash , would be all that Eircom would ask for to do them all in one programme and that this would do about 68% of the punters getting a service off those exchanges. Sure that amount would not pay for the ministers annual transport budget....or a 5km section of Dual Carriageway around Ballydehob.

Thats also a lot better than the €1.8 B bandied about recently in the press.

The GBS scheme can then be tweaked to benefit areas beyond the DSL service reach, thats about 6km from the enabled exchanges. Any SCHLUP projects in there yet he wonders

M

viking · 08-12-2004 3:44pm

Some info in the applications is commercially sensitive so they are not released to the public. However, the Dept may be able to provide you with the numbers listed for each town.

V

damien · 08-12-2004 3:57pm

Muck wrote:

As there are 900 exchanges without DSL we can reasonably surmise that an offer of 30K each , €27,000,000 cash , would be all that Eircom would ask for to do them all in one programme and that this would do about 68% of the punters getting a service off those exchanges.

One has to wonder how much it would cost Smart and Esat if they tried to do the same thing ?

If it is only to cost eircom €30,000,000 or so, then surely if they are spending 200m a year on their network, they can afford to do this easily ?

viking · 08-12-2004 3:59pm

Muck wrote:

As there are 900 exchanges without DSL we can reasonably surmise that an offer of 30K each , €27,000,000 cash , would be all that Eircom would ask for to do them all in one programme and that this would do about 68% of the punters getting a service off those exchanges. Sure that amount would not pay for the ministers annual transport budget....or a 5km section of Dual Carriageway around Ballydehob.

If its only going to cost circa €30m for the 900 exchanges to be done, then (to ask "the question") why should you & I pay for it from our taxes?

Viking

SkepticOne · 08-12-2004 4:27pm

viking wrote:

Eircom's DSL trigger levels are now officially a scam:

Rathdrum -> Trigger Level: 372 Current: 32

Crosshaven -> Trigger Level: 500 Current: 13

These towns both fell way short of the trigger levels but as soon as the Government gave them circa €8k they became viable?????

S.C.A.M

Edit: I'm not bitter so congratulations are due to all towns who received funding!

It also means that Eircom scammed Udaras na Gaeltachta with 90,000 per exchange as Muck points out.

The reason it is so much less with the GBS is that the GBS is open to all competitors. If Eircom don't move in, then someone else will and not only take potential broadband business from Eircom but also a good proportion of dial-up and ISDN.

If you are only prepared to do business with one company then that company will rip you off.

The GBS, even if is only a very small part of the solution, has exposed Eircom's monopolistic practices. We now know how best to deal with them. Complaining about them is worthless. They must be treated like any other business and bypassed when they are not providing appropriate service. Only then will they respond favourably.

A lot of the problem to date has been treating Eircom as the only possible solution to the problem. This, of course, suits Eircom down to the ground, but it also means that they can then hold the country to ransom.

spongebob · 08-12-2004 4:35pm

SkepticOne wrote:

It also means that Eircom scammed Udaras na Gaeltachta with 90,000 per exchange as Muck points out.

Not quite. The Udarás was the first public body to strike a price with Eirocm for DSL. The GBS schemes came in after Eircom had set a precedent whereby they would take the money and do the exchange. Do remember that a 2Mb Traditional leased line costs €40 a year in the Gaeltachts .....as against DSL at the same price and service levels for much of an area for €90k . It is not a shocking waste of money on the west coast where straightening a boreen through granite down to a pier can cost you €90k ....and thats to haul a few lobster out .

The reason it is so much less with the GBS is that the GBS is open to all competitors. If Eircom don't move in, then someone else will and not only take potential broadband business from Eircom but also a good proportion of dial-up and ISDN.

Yes. Fear of O2 and of strong Wisps is more like it.

If you are only prepared to do business with one company then that company will rip you off.

Who owns every wire and fibre in the Gaeltachts ?

The GBS, even if is only a very small part of the solution, has exposed Eircom's monopolistic practices. We now know how best to deal with them. Complaining about them is worthless. They must be treated like any other business and bypassed when they are not providing appropriate service. Only then will they respond favourably.

A lot of the problem to date has been treating Eircom as the only possible solution to the problem. This, of course, suits Eircom down to the ground, but it also means that they can then hold the country to ransom.

€30,000,000 million is what Con Scanlons shares are worth alone I'd say

. This is peanuts . I would agree with Viking that they should find the money themselves

M

viking · 08-12-2004 4:44pm

Muck wrote:

€30,000,000 million is what Con Scanlons shares are worth alone I'd say

Maybe not, but George Soros' sold most of his shares yesterday morning and raised nearly €24m. Wonder what prompted him to drop out of a seemingly very profitable monopolistic company? Perhaps they asked him to finance the upgrade the 900 exchanges?

Viking strokes his chin and looks pensive...

SkepticOne · 08-12-2004 5:37pm

Muck wrote:

It is not a shocking waste of money on the west coast where straightening a boreen through granite down to a pier can cost you €90k ....and thats to haul a few lobster out .

I'm sure this is the sort of thing Eircom used to justify their pricing.

Yes. Fear of O2 and of strong Wisps is more like it.

Exactly, Eircom weren't the only company in the running and so they were forced to compete in order for the business or lose out.

Who owns every wire and fibre in the Gaeltachts ?

...and are therefore in a position to rip off Udarás?

€30,000,000 million is what Con Scanlons shares are worth alone I'd say . This is peanuts . I would agree with Viking that they should find the money themselves

Obviously they should. Why should the tax payer fund Eircom extending their monopoly?

spongebob · 08-12-2004 6:25pm

Sorry Scep. I shoulda made myself a tad clearer.

1. The Udarás scheme covers areas that are a long way off getting DSL
2. The next round of Eircom DSL exchanges (financed by Eircom) is reputedly 200 or so in towns that have a population of between 1000 and 1500 . The other 700 non DSL enabled exchanges exchanges are not on any program now or to be announced in the next 4-6 weeks by Dr Phil .
3. As a value for money exercise 700 x €30k would cost €21 Million or so. What other infrastructural investment of €21 million would have such a return ? €21 Million would not pay for a scheme to scrub the sh1te outta Swords <cough> Swords Sewage Scheme

Phil is angling for this investment by the way but I would only subsidise the smallest 2-300 exchanges to the tune of €30k each , so thats 300 exchanges DSL enabled for €9m .....all small ones and rural ones. €9m is the Road Budget somewhere like Longford for one year.

Yes there are other issues too such as a failed regulator. How about a communications act that allows Comreg to fine up to .....€9m per incident say .

M

SkepticOne · 09-12-2004 8:09am

Muck wrote:

3. As a value for money exercise 700 x €30k would cost €21 Million or so. What other infrastructural investment of €21 million would have such a return ? €21 Million would not pay for a scheme to scrub the sh1te outta Swords <cough> Swords Sewage Scheme

I'm not against subsidising broadband by the tax payer. There are two points with regard to paying to upgrade exchanges however.

Firstly, at present Eircom are the only bidder for the work of upgrading exchanges. Therefore they get to call the price, not anyone else. It doesn't matter if they upgraded some other exchange for a particular amount elsewhere. If they feel like arguing they will just add in costs to justify a far greater amount like they did with Udaras. They could also add in a monthly subsidy if they felt the could get away with it. Why not? I think we all realise at this stage that Eircom don't care where the money comes from so long as they get hold of it. If the goal is upgrading exchanges, then the tax-payer or local community has no bargaining power. It is only when the possibility of other companies enters the equation that things change. The proof of this is now finally clear. What Eircom claim to be justified costs turn out not to be when competition becomes a possibility. This is something that many have known but it is really only now that we see proper evidence of it.

Secondly, what do we say to people who's line is off a enabled exchange but who fails to pass the test? They have absolutely no bargaining power with Eircom who are just as happy to take money off people for ISDN or dial up as with DSL.

If you go down the route that future progress involves Eircom upgrading exchanges, then the starting point must be the rights of the individual consumer to a certain level of service so that when an exchange is upgraded, those users are now entitled to broadband, not merely the possibility of it. But this is where Eircom can really clean up. Eircom can now ask for potentially billions to fix the network. They don't need to justify the figure in any rational sense, it is simply whatever they can extract from the tax-payer.

But as we have seen, this is not the way to go.

eircomtribunal · 09-12-2004 8:53am

SkepticOne wrote:

But as we have seen, this is not the way to go.

I could not agree more with your analysis.

The big danger is this: The gov will, after all those mounting reports and growing media and TD interest in the broadband failure, feel more than ever it has to grasp any straw offered to them.
The suggestion of the County Councils to subsidise Eircom this way is the first sign of falling for that great temptation. Without correct diagnosis of the cause of the ailment – and all what the likes of ComReg, Forfas and Information Society Council have offered so far is grossly inadequate (Forfas spokesman Martin Cronan even maintained on Newtalk that it would not be helpful to ascertain who's to blame) – there will be no correct prescription. Any doctor knows that.

P.

SkepticOne · 09-12-2004 10:02am

eircomtribunal wrote:

The big danger is this: The gov will, after all those mounting reports and growing media and TD interest in the broadband failure, feel more than ever it has to grasp any straw offered to them.

Yes, and it will also lead to demand raising excercises paid for by the government in an attempt to get the numbers up in the absence of availability or competition.

If we look at what has been achieved in other countries, it is almost always in countries that have a long standing high degree of competition that are now the leaders. This is because no single company in the competitive market in these other countries could afford to stand still.

When we look at the situation in Ireland, it is still largely a monopoly situation and consequently, we get a slow pace of change. If blame is to be handed out it should be handed out to those who hindered this competition or failed to stimulate it when they had the power to do otherwise.

However, in addition to blame, it is very important that positive steps be recommended to rectify the situation once the basic understanding of what has gone wrong has been communicated.

We need to get back to what we started out trying to achieve. The overall broadband take-up figures are a just symptom of the problem IrelandOffline was set up to solve. Not the problem in itself.

viking · 09-12-2004 10:24am

eircomtribunal wrote:

The big danger is this: The gov will, after all those mounting reports and growing media and TD interest in the broadband failure, feel more than ever it has to grasp any straw offered to them.

Apparently, the gov offered eircom funding before and eircom refused it. I don't think the gov will make the offer again but they will (have to) provide funding to them if they partner up with a community group for GBS funding.

256-512k DSL is only an introductory broadband technology. As has been stated before by gov and EU agencies, 2Mbit connections are what defines "broadband". The government will/should not provide funding for an introductory technology.

So the question is, does eircom want this GBS funding for all its "un-enabled" in order to enable them and create 100% coverage of all eircom lines? Or are they cherry picking a few, ie. those that may have very few ISDN customers for example?

My feeling is that the two towns are for show, eircom needed to be included in the GBS for fear of having the finger pointed at them as having blantantly not attempted to provide BB to smaller communities.

Viking

eircomtribunal · 09-12-2004 10:25am

SkepticOne wrote:

Yes, and it will also lead to demand raising excercises paid for by the government in an attempt to get the numbers up in the absence of availability or competition.

Unfortunately this is recommended both by the latest Forfas broadband statement and the latest Information Society Commission report.

We have to ask them this question:
"If Ireland had very poor mobile phone take up, compared to other countries, caused by having only a signal coverage to 60 percent of the population, should we engage in more demand stimulation?"

P.

From the Forfas document, page 14
9.0.Demand for Broadband
• Policies that promote infrastructure availability in isolation from the demand-driven applications that utilise this capacity run the risk of encouraging inefficient investment decisions by Government and the private sector in telecommunications.
• Much of the focus to date has been on the supply of broadband given Ireland’s current poor position in this context. Going forward, it will be necessary to ensure that support is also given to promoting awareness and demand for broadband content and applications.

SkepticOne · 09-12-2004 10:46am

viking wrote:

So the question is, does eircom want this GBS funding for all its "un-enabled" in order to enable them and create 100% coverage of all eircom lines? Or are they cherry picking a few, ie. those that may have very few ISDN customers for example?

My feeling is that the two towns are for show, eircom needed to be included in the GBS for fear of having the finger pointed at them as having blantantly not attempted to provide BB to smaller communities.

Eircom aren't worried what people think provided the money keeps coming in. From their point of view, the finger pointed at them is hardly an issue. Afterall, upgrading those two towns makes a mockery of their previous position on trigger levels yet they are not bothered.

I don't think Eircom don't want the GBS money per se since it is not very much. As Muck points out, what they don't want is losing out to other companies which they will if they are not in the running for GBS scheme. Sure, they will probably upgrade those towns eventually anyway, but by that stage, they will be trying to win back customers and this will mean spending money on fixing lines and so on which they would, of course, rather not have to do.

I think they are pretty much forced to participate in the GBS to some extent.

spongebob · 09-12-2004 11:14am

I am trying to posit a slightly different viewpoint .

If every exchange is 'done' ....and leaving aside the mechanics and cost for the moment but assuming low 10's of millions......DSL can then be brought into the USO mechanism <cough>

M

Mr_Man · 09-12-2004 11:26am

For the sake of consistency Comreg would let Eircom define what BB is and after a few years Eircom would say 'its whatever we fell like giving you'

M.

spongebob · 09-12-2004 12:01pm

Not quite. Comreg have carried out a Market Analysis of the Wholesale BB Market which must conclude that Eircom has SMP or else I'm a Dutchman

. Once they conclude that Eircom have SMP they can regulate that market ...assuming they have the vision and courage to so do .

Part of that would be to force up the miniumum package standards .

M

god's toy · 08-02-2005 11:36pm

Can someone tell me if Rathdrum is enabled yet?

Thanks

spongebob · 08-02-2005 11:39pm

god's toy · 09-02-2005 7:36am

ah, ok thanks anyway

Eircom now involved in GBS with towns

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