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Outer City Bypass

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  • #482
    El_Dangeroso
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    What is the cost of a 3/4-bed semi in the "rural" hinterland outside Galway City compared to urban and suburban areas?

    Um, a lot less? Sorry not sure what your point is, was that a rhetorical question, a cursory check on daft will let you know if not.

    Remember a lot of house buying happened during the boom, when the city was even less affordable. As they say, we are where we are.


  • #483
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,666 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »
    I don't agree with a policy that tries to dictate to people where they should live. .... There will always be a large number of people who will want to drive to Galway to work and live elsewhere and these should be accommodated with more road capacity, while those who want to live on the west and work on the east of the city and vice versa should also have capacity provided for them to get to work quickly and easily by bypassing the city centre.

    No one's trying to dictate where any individual should live.

    But on a population basis, it's simply not feasible to allow a majority to live in one-off housing in the country side and also give them all fast car access to the city centre. Among other things, they'll all get in each other's way.

    We built roads to keep people out of the city centre: Bóthar na dTreabh and the Quin bridge and the Western Distributor Rd. But all they really did was expand the city out around them.


  • #484
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Your comment was that "not everyone has a choice to live within cycling/bussing/walking distance to work due to the high cost of housing in the city."

    If this issue is to have any bearing on the present debate, then it must be the case that (a) the same type of house costs substantially less in "rural" areas than in the city, and (b) a significant portion of the population must be living in such accommodation in rural areas.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, by the way, but can you point to any evidence that supports such an assertion?


  • #485
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    We built roads to keep people out of the city centre: Bóthar na dTreabh and the Quin bridge and the Western Distributor Rd. But all they really did was expand the city out around them.


    Was that an objective of the WDR? I had no idea, tbh.


  • #486
    El_Dangeroso
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Your comment was that "not everyone has a choice to live within cycling/bussing/walking distance to work due to the high cost of housing in the city."

    If this issue is to have any bearing on the present debate, then it must be the case that (a) the same type of house costs substantially less in "rural" areas than in the city, and (b) a significant portion of the population must be living in such accommodation in rural areas.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, by the way, but can you point to any evidence that supports such an assertion?

    Not sure what evidence I could provide, only that proximity to centres of trade and enterprise is a determinant of a house price all other things being equal, I didn't think this was controversial? I suppose compare what your money will get you in claregalway or athenry vs anywhere within 5km of Spanish arch on daft if you need to see for yourself.

    I know a lot of people who bought houses in commuter towns in the boom that now bemoan their hours spent in the carpark that is Claregalway of a morning. They'd much rather live in a city suburb and spend that 2 hours a day with their kids rather than listening to drivetime radio.

    Of course some people have communities that they want to stay in but that generally doesn't lead to population growth in this area, but rather maintennence.

    I don't get why it has to be a case of forward thinking public transport strategies OR a bypass. Can't we have both?


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  • #487
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I live in one of those nice country houses and if I had it to do again I would not buy out the country for many, many reasons
    - properties are too spread out to provide proper provision of services
    - long ass commute
    - general expense of having no option but to own a car

    I always lived in the city and never owned a car until we moved out to the countryside and instead cycled everywhere.

    I look forward to when I can finally close the sale of the house I'm currently in, move back into the city and sell the car.

    As for country living being popular, its popular because of poor planning laws & controls. As those get tightened up over the next few years, its going to become less and less popular.

    All that being said, the bypass is needed if only to remove 40% of through traffic from the city and I hope they make the smart (IMHO) choice and go for the green route of something similar as this is the most future proof option as far as I can see

    It's the other way around for me. I grew up and lived in the country until my mid 20's. I'm currently living in a city (not galway) and while I do like living in the city I could never see myself settling in one and long term the country is where I plan to live, specifically in my homes area of co. Galway.
    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    If your choice of home requires you to drive a car everywhere then by definition you are infringing on other people. You are infringing on other people if you expect everybody's taxes to be spent to facilitate your personal lifestyle choices.

    If you want to live in the country then you should bear the full cost of your actions.

    What a joke, I pay road tax, vrt, vat and excise on petrol, vat on servicing, vat on tyres and all the people that are kept in jobs due to cars and running them. I'm not getting anywhere near the service that I'm paying for when it comes to roads and infrastructure.
    Zzippy wrote: »
    So you want to live in your fantasy house, and have roads built to enable you to live wherever you want and get somewhere else quickly? What about the people currently living in real houses where they want, not too far from the city, whose real homes are under threat for a road just to facilitate people like you? Are you more important than them or something?

    Most of my family and many of my friends are living in real houses in the country and I also use the roads regularly myself also as I am back around country galway regularly. I don't want to see people out out of their houses btw but something needs to be done to increase road capacity in and around the City.


  • #488
    WallyGUFC
    Registered Users Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭WallyGUFC


    When were Bothar na dTreabh and the QB built? And why don't buses cross the QB?


  • #489
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    El_Dangeroso wrote: »
    I know a lot of people who bought houses in commuter towns in the boom that now bemoan their hours spent in the carpark that is Claregalway of a morning. They'd much rather live in a city suburb and spend that 2 hours a day with their kids rather than listening to drivetime radio.

    ...

    I don't get why it has to be a case of forward thinking public transport strategies OR a bypass. Can't we have both?


    A dozen years ago we discussed the idea of living outside the city for about three minutes and dismissed it. Our choice was to live a reasonable distance from work and education. Curiously, most of our neighbours, who in general travel to the same places, use their cars for every trip. I'll bet if you surveyed them most would agree with a bypass, just not through our collective backyard.

    We could have had forward-thinking transport policies for the past 25 years, but we didn't. The reason, in my view, is that the only show in town from the late 90s was a bypass. It was to solve everything, including the consequences of decades of doing nothing effective about traffic and transportation. I've even had Garda officers tell me on more than one occasion that the answer to traffic enforcement problems is a bypass. Go figure...

    Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »
    I pay road tax, vrt, vat and excise on petrol, vat on servicing, vat on tyres and all the people that are kept in jobs due to cars and running them. I'm not getting anywhere near the service that I'm paying for when it comes to roads and infrastructure.


    Again that's an individualistic, ideological and emotive argument for a "bypass", not a rational one. It's based on nothing more than a sense of entitlement. The "I pay tax" special pleading argument has already been addressed by none other than the European Commission: taxes and charges do not cover the external costs of private motor transport (especially in Ireland, perhaps, with our absurd levels of sprawl, populist road-building projects and EU-beating levels of car dependence?).


  • #490
    crusier
    Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭crusier


    Maybe Galway should ban tourists, those bastards come every year in their cars and clog up the city, they should be made cycle from airports and some of them have the cheek to drive across the city wanting to go to that place called Connemara where the peasants live!


  • #491
    nuac
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    crusier wrote: »
    Maybe Galway should ban tourists, those bastards come every year in their cars and clog up the city, they should be made cycle from airports and some of them have the cheek to drive across the city wanting to go to that place called Connemara where the peasants live!

    They can stay east of the Corrib, admiring views of limestone pavements and bog-cotton.

    Tourists come from all around the world just to see these


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  • #492
    ?Cee?view
    Registered Users Posts: 2,834 ✭✭✭?Cee?view


    nuac wrote: »

    Tourists come from all around the world just to see these

    Not to mention inward investment. Those multinationals who employ people just love the oul Galway bog cotton...


  • #493
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    A dozen years ago we discussed the idea of living outside the city for about three minutes and dismissed it. Our choice was to live a reasonable distance from work and education.

    Funnily enough my home place is in the middle nowhere relatively speaking and just over 1km from a primary school and 4km from a secondary school. If you can avoid the bad 30 mins or so of traffic in the mornings you can be in work and around the city in 30 mins or so and only 20 mins into the city at off peak times.

    I'd call that living a reasonable distance. Off course if you have an irrational hatred of using the nice, comfortable, convenient and flexible form of transport this the car and expect to be able to get buses or cycle places then of course you will have issues living in the country.


  • #494
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    crusier wrote: »
    Maybe Galway should ban tourists, those bastards come every year in their cars and clog up the city, they should be made cycle from airports and some of them have the cheek to drive across the city wanting to go to that place called Connemara where the peasants live!
    Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »
    If you can avoid the bad 30 mins or so of traffic in the mornings you can be in work and around the city in 30 mins or so and only 20 mins into the city at off peak times.

    Comparatively few bring their cars to Ireland, I would imagine. Those coming to Galway may use rental cars, but they can also come by bus and train.

    When they arrive in Galway during the summer they will experience the well-recognised phenomenon of traffic moving more freely when the schools are off (though not during the Race Week mania, presumably).

    They may also come by bike, although they may think twice about cycling around the more cycle-hostile parts of the city, mixing with the many dangerous and erratic drivers.

    Nine years ago, Failte Ireland developed a national cycle tourism strategy, pointing to the fact that this sector was worth €50 million to the economy. They specifically excluded Galway City from their plans, mainly because the many cycle-hostile roundabouts prevented the identification of safe and convenient routes in and through the city.

    If they cycle around the city the European ones especially will find, to their surprise, that they are legally prohibited from following the most direct and convenient routes, because of the extensive one-way system designed to facilitate traffic flow and car parking. They will also notice that in stark contrast to many European cities and towns not a single metre of road in the entire city has a speed limit lower than 50 km/h.

    If the tourists choose to walk around the city, as many do, they will find that even the key routes lack pedestrian-priority crossings, because the Council prioritises motorised traffic flow along city routes and 'corridors' rather than pedestrian connectivity and permeability. They will also see numerous examples of narrow and inadequately surfaced footpaths, pedestrian-hostile wide kerb radii and other impediments to walking such as rampant illegal parking on footpaths (blithely ignored by wardens and police). They will see a small city (really a town in EU terms) strangely wedded to the car for travelling even short distances, and the Germans and Dutch among them may well wonder why the Irish own fewer cars than they do but yet have somehow collectively lost the use of their legs.


  • #495
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »

    We built roads to keep people out of the city centre: Bóthar na dTreabh and the Quin bridge and the Western Distributor Rd. But all they really did was expand the city out around them.

    In the case of Quin Bridge and Bóthar na dTreabh that isn't necessary true. The city already had been developed past them by late 70's early 80's. For example Newcastle and Tirellan (though I don't have exact development dates). In reality Bóthar na dTreabh should have crossed Terryland River and gone north of Tirellan with bridge across the Corrib north of Jordan's island (say around top of Corrib Village). Instead they pushed it through Suckeen bog.


  • #496
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »
    nice, comfortable, convenient and flexible form of transport


    That's what all the drivers say to themselves, presumably. Of course, from this perspective traffic congestion is caused by all those other drivers, or by those nasty people who won't create more and more space for the NCCFFT.

    As for the inevitable consequences of mass dependence on NCCFFT, the desperation is growing:
    Galway delegation to travel to Europe to discuss bypass options

    A deputation from Galway is to travel to Europe to discuss proposals for a new city bypass and the option of returning to the original route which failed at planning stage. It was decided at a special meeting of the Galway County Council on Monday evening that city and county councillors, local TDs, and community representatives will meet MEPs and members of the European Commission to discuss various options.

    ...

    There is hope in some quarters that if the old application was made under Article 6.4 of The European Habitats Directive, it could be successfully advanced. According to this part of the legislation, a project may be carried out in spite of a negative assessment of a priority habitat, if it is proved prove there is no alternative, or for reasons of overriding public interest [IROPI], including those of a social or economic nature.

    And another choice quote:
    Athenry based Peter Feeney told the chamber, that as a council, this was one of the most important recommendations it would ever make. He said it was extremely important that the message went back to the Government that Galway County Council was in favour of the project. He made an impassioned case for the need for a new bypass.

    “The traffic situation in Galway is in crisis, the roads are full, the car parks are full. There is a social and family element to this, people are spending hours in their cars, leaving children in crèches, early in the morning until late evening.

    I love that bit in bold. Now we need a bypass to deal with a lack of car parking spaces! You could not make it up.

    And why is Cllr Feeney lamenting that people are spending hours in a "nice, comfortable, convenient and flexible" transport environment?


  • #497
    crusier
    Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭crusier


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    That's what all the drivers say to themselves, presumably. Of course, from this perspective traffic congestion is caused by all those other drivers, or by those nasty people who won't create more and more space for the NCCFFT.

    As for the inevitable consequences of mass dependence on NCCFFT, the desperation is growing:



    And another choice quote:



    I love that bit in bold. Now we need a bypass to deal with a lack of car parking spaces! You could not make it up.

    And why is Cllr Feeney lamenting that people are spending hours in a "nice, comfortable, convenient and flexible" transport environment?

    If you were around when the wheel was invented you would have objected to it!


  • #498
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    crusier wrote: »
    If you were around when the wheel was invented you would have objected to it!

    Nope. Hint: bikes have wheels, as do prams etc.

    If Galway Councillors were around when pedestrian crossings were invented, they'd still be looking for a bypass.


  • #499
    crusier
    Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭crusier


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Nope. Hint: bikes have wheels, as do prams etc.

    If Galway Councillors were around when pedestrian crossings were invented, they'd still be looking for a bypass.

    I know bikes and prams have wheels but you wouldn't have had the foresight to see the value they would be to you!!!


  • #500
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    You're clutching at straws now, like those Councillors heading off to Europe, cap in hand... :)


  • #501
    apoeiguq3094y
    Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭apoeiguq3094y


    WallyGUFC wrote: »
    When were Bothar na dTreabh and the QB built? And why don't buses cross the QB?

    During morning /evening traffic you could walk faster than the traffic on these stretches. No point having buses sitting in that traffic.

    There isn't enough space to add in bus lanes.


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  • #502
    snubbleste
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 31,117 ✭✭✭✭snubbleste


    apoeiguq3094y wrote: »
    During morning /evening traffic you could walk faster than the traffic on these stretches. No point having buses sitting in that traffic. There isn't enough space to add in bus lanes.
    Of course a full 50 seater bus would never replace 50 single occupancy cars.


  • #503
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    WallyGUFC wrote: »
    When were Bothar na dTreabh and the QB built? And why don't buses cross the QB?
    apoeiguq3094y wrote: »
    During morning /evening traffic you could walk faster than the traffic on these stretches. No point having buses sitting in that traffic.

    There isn't enough space to add in bus lanes.

    This issue keeps coming up.

    There is a proposal in the 2007 Strategic Bus Study to install bus lanes on the QB, but it is predicated on a bypass.

    My feeling is that the main obstacles are inertia, ineptitude and lack of leadership, vision, determination and political will, not traffic (the original failure to link the Luas lines is analogous, imo).

    Other measures in the Strategic Bus Study were not regarded as bypass-dependent, and have been implemented only slowly, if at all.


  • #504
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    snubbleste wrote: »
    Of course a full 50 seater bus would never replace 50 single occupancy cars.

    Can you elaborate?


  • #505
    crusier
    Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭crusier


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    You're clutching at straws now, like those Councillors heading off to Europe, cap in hand... :)

    Maybe clutching bog cotton!


  • #506
    nuac
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    As far as I recall the original bridge proposal was refused by the powers that be because it would damage some bog cotton, and piling would affect about two percent of a limestone pavement of about 45 sq hectare.

    There is a lot of bog cotton all over our bogs.

    There is a lot of limestone paving in Clare, Galway and Mayo,

    Some of that paving is in places where road and bridge building is unlikely and thus will be preserved intact go deo.

    Meanwhile I see that the amended proposals will involved the demolition of some family homes.

    So the paving and bogcotton have priority over peoples' homes?

    The environmental legislation seems to be drafted in absolute terms


  • #507
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,867 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    http://www.nuigalway.ie/about-us/news-and-events/news-archive/2015/march2015/nui-galway-announces-opposition-to-galway-city-transport-project.html
    "
    The University will therefore strongly object to current proposals and call for alternative options for the future of Galway transport planning.
    "


  • #508
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,867 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    http://connachttribune.ie/n6-action-group-welcomes-universitys-opposition-to-bypass-routes/

    "Professor Jim Browne says two of the potential routes would heavily impact on the college campus in Newcastle.
    Professor Browne says the impact of the current bypass options would be devastating for NUIG and Galway.
    "


  • #509
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    From the Advertiser report:
    “If options with differences in cost of as much as €250m are under consideration, how can these proposals reasonably be seen as a comprehensive appraisal of a 'Transport Project'?

    Just as we don’t know how and when the concept of the Outer Bypass disappeared entirely from consideration [acknowledging that European and Supreme Court decisions created major problems for the initial plan], we have no information on what assessment has been done of alternative methods of dealing with local transport issues.

    Presumably €250m would make a significant contribution towards a light rail system, and certainly it would pay for very significant improvements in the bus system,” the statement added.

    I'm confused about the first half of the second paragraph above, but otherwise I think the NUIG analysis is spot on. Even the difference between the lower and upper cost estimates for a "bypass" would be enough to transform the traffic and transportation environment of the city (it's ten times Galway City Council's wildly optimistic Smarter Travel bid) yet on that score there is nothing of substance even hinted at yet in the N6GCTP proposals.


  • #510
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    what_traffic wrote: »
    http://www.nuigalway.ie/about-us/news-and-events/news-archive/2015/march2015/nui-galway-announces-opposition-to-galway-city-transport-project.html
    "
    The University will therefore strongly object to current proposals and call for alternative options for the future of Galway transport planning.
    "

    Basically they want the Green route, or at push comes to shove the Orange route which is in tunnel under river.


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  • #511
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    what_traffic wrote: »
    http://connachttribune.ie/n6-action-group-welcomes-universitys-opposition-to-bypass-routes/

    "Professor Jim Browne says two of the potential routes would heavily impact on the college campus in Newcastle.
    Professor Browne says the impact of the current bypass options would be devastating for NUIG and Galway.
    "

    Well specifically the red route would be devastating, the blue/pink/yellow river crossing would take out a football pitch, the running track and the astroturf so I can see why he'd be pissed bout that, but it wouldn't actually cause any division in the campus (from an academic point of view)


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