Tracing a soldier in Royal Irish Rifles

chughes · 24-12-2014 9:21pm #1

I wonder could someone be good enough to point me in the right direction?
I'm trying to find information on a soldier called Robert Edward Thompson who was in the Royal Irish Rifles. I understand he was killed early in the First World War in France.

He was from Belfast originally and he was married to a Bridget Delaney from Dublin. His regiment had been stationed in India.

I'm afraid that's all I know about him but if someone could let me know where I could start looking for details I would be grateful.

shanew · 24-12-2014 9:46pm

possible match from Commonwealth War Graves Commission website - I'm not seeing any service record for him using his service number, so details may not have survived

Name : Robert Thompson
Rank: Rifleman
Service No: 44869
Date of Death: 21/03/1918
Regiment/Service: Royal Irish Rifles 15th Bn. formerly (2527), Royal Sussex Regiment
Panel Reference: Panel 74 to 76.
Memorial: Pozieres memorial

see : here

shanew · 24-12-2014 9:55pm

there's a second possibility a Robert Thompson also Royal Irish Rifles died 11 Mar 1915, Service no. 5295 - see here (cwgc)

chughes · 24-12-2014 9:58pm

Thanks Shane. As I understand it, Robert Thompson was killed early in the war so I reckon the 1918 death may be a bit late.

shanew · 24-12-2014 10:10pm

There are a number of Robert Thompson deaths serving with the Royal Irish Rifles, including a few born Co. Antrim, and just one that specifically states Belfast, Service No. 5295. Only additional detail included (see below) on the Soldier Died in the Great War list is residence, and no sign of a service record that I can find for him...

Name: Robert Thompson
Birth Place: Belfast
Residence: Dublin
Death Date: 11 Mar 1915
Death Place: France and Flanders
Enlistment Place: Belfast
Rank: L Corporal
Regiment: Royal Irish Rifles
Battalion: 1st Battalion
Regimental Number: 5295
Type of Casualty: Killed in action
Theatre of War: Western European Theatre

Maybe a search for a marriage cert would be the next step...

chughes · 24-12-2014 10:22pm

Thanks again Shane. I'll visit the Gilbert Library in the New Year and have a look at the marriage records.

johnny_doyle · 25-12-2014 3:02am

Will mentions wife, Bridget Thompson

http://soldierswills.nationalarchives.ie/reels/sw/ThompsonR_E79865.pdf

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/irish-soldiers-ww1.html

chughes · 25-12-2014 9:21am

Johnny, thanks for that. Given that it mentions Bridget there is a strong possibility that this is the will of the Robert Thompson I'm looking for.

shanew · 25-12-2014 11:33am

a possible marriage for Robert and Bridget :

Name: Robert Thompson
Quarter and Year : Oct-Nov-Dec 1904
Registration district: Dublin South
Volume: 2 / Page : 585

One of the cross-matching names is a Bridie Delaney

johnny_doyle · 25-12-2014 1:05pm

FYI

http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/12d5eb0030731

chughes · 25-12-2014 9:45pm

Shane/Johnny

Many thanks for these details, I really appreciate it.

Am I right in thinking that Robert Thompson would have a service record detailing his various postings, etc. ? If so, how would I get access to this?

shanew · 26-12-2014 11:28am

chughes wrote: »

...Am I right in thinking that Robert Thompson would have a service record detailing his various postings, etc. ? If so, how would I get access to this?

Unfortunately about 60% of the WW1 service records were lost during the Blitz, see some more information here

I had a quick search for your Robert yesterday based on name and service number, which usually works if there's surviving record, but didn't spot anything. There should be a medal card for him, but these have only very basic details.

johnny_doyle · 26-12-2014 1:46pm

Medal card shows he was awarded the 1914 Star with Clasp, British War Medal and Victory Medal. Landed France 6th Nov 1914. Tallies with the Long Long Trail note re 1st Battalion landing at Le Havre 6th Nov 1914.

If you have someone with an academic background, you might be able to get the following article re 1/RIR

http://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&type=summary&url=/journals/journal_of_military_history/v067/67.4perry.pdf

chughes · 27-01-2015 11:02am

Having visited the GRO research office in Werburgh St. I found the wedding details of the Robert Thompson I was looking for. He married Bridget Delany on 24 October in 1904. I see that they got married in the Church of the Holy Trinity in Rathmines. Although Robert was a Protestant, Bridget was a Catholic and I thought it was unusual for a Catholic to get married in a Protestant church.

I also found the birth details of the first and fourth children in the GRO but found no trace of children number two and three. I know that the Royal Irish Rifles were based overseas and that they returned to the UK in October 1914 from Aden. As I understand it, the family went with the regiment so I'm presuming that child two and child three were born overseas.

How would one go about tracing the birth details of children born into military families overseas?

pinkypinky · 27-01-2015 11:23am

Two points: you may find they also married in a RC church. One set of my g-grandparents was mixed and they married in 2 churches.

The GRO in Roscommon (which has no public reading room) has records of overseas births in the military. You can ask them to search it.

chughes · 29-01-2015 9:32pm

johnny_doyle wrote: »

Medal card shows he was awarded the 1914 Star with Clasp, British War Medal and Victory Medal. Landed France 6th Nov 1914. Tallies with the Long Long Trail note re 1st Battalion landing at Le Havre 6th Nov 1914.

If you have someone with an academic background, you might be able to get the following article re 1/RIR

http://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&type=summary&url=/journals/journal_of_military_history/v067/67.4perry.pdf

Johnny, how were you able to see the medal card? I went onto the UK National Archives website and there appears to be a charge to view the details. Do you have a subscription to the website?

Ponster · 30-01-2015 1:10pm

chughes wrote: »

Johnny, how were you able to see the medal card? I went onto the UK National Archives website and there appears to be a charge to view the details. Do you have a subscription to the website?

I believe that he does, yes (Or a sub to a site that also allows access such as Ancestry).

johnny_doyle · 03-02-2015 7:59pm

apologies. A new job means I'm not online as much at the moment.

I use Ancestry. The National Archives website gives you a PDF with a number of medal index cards for several soldiers in one hit. Front of card only. Ancestry gives front and back of the card - unfortunately the back of the card doesn't always have information but sometimes has the address of the next of kin.

Ancestry also gives access to other WW1 resources and the 1901/1911 census for England, Wales, Scotland etc

johnny_doyle · 03-02-2015 8:20pm

chughes wrote: »

I also found the birth details of the first and fourth children in the GRO but found no trace of children number two and three. I know that the Royal Irish Rifles were based overseas and that they returned to the UK in October 1914 from Aden. As I understand it, the family went with the regiment so I'm presuming that child two and child three were born overseas.

How would one go about tracing the birth details of children born into military families overseas?

2nd Battalion postings

1899 South Africa
1903 Dublin
1906 Aldershot
1910 Dover
1912 Tidworth
1914 France & Flanders (from August)

1911 census for another Robert Thompson (3 single men of the name in Dover in 1911)

CIVIL PARISH: Dover Castle Dover
COUNTY/ISLAND: Kent
COUNTRY: England
STREET ADDRESS: 2Nd Battalion Royal Irish Rifles, Citadel Barracks, Western Heights, Dover
MARITAL STATUS: Single
MILITARY UNIT: 2 Battalion Royal Irish Rifles

chughes · 03-02-2015 11:40pm

Robert Thompson seemed to have moved between the 1st and 2nd Battalions. It looks like he was in the 1st Battalion when he was killed in March 1915.

Thanks for giving me the locations of the 2nd Battalion, can you tell me the locations of the 1st Battalion?

Thanks again.

johnny_doyle · 05-02-2015 7:45pm

1st Battalion postings

1881 South Africa
1882 Guernsey
1889 Mullingar
1892 Fermoy
1894 Newry
1895 Aldershot
1897 Natal
1899 Dehra Dun
1903 Fyzabad
1906 Meerut
1909 Burma
1911 Kemptee
1913 Aden
1914 France & Flanders (from November)

KildareFan · 05-02-2015 9:08pm

Ancesty now has a database UK, Army Registers of Soldiers' Effects, 1901-1929 - some interesting information on soldiers killed in WW1, including date and place of death, and names of next of kin. The information on Robert Thompson is:
Robert Thompson, 1st Battalion Royal Irish Rifles, lance corporal 5295
Died 11 Mar 1915 Neuve Chapelle,
war gratuity £15-19-2 given to widow Bridget, sole legatee, 9 Oct 1915
war gratuity £5-0-0 given to widow Mrs Bridget Carolan, sole legatee 23 Aug 1919
I don't know if this means Bridget's maiden name was Carolan, or had she remarried?

Robert is buried in Le Touret - see details at
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1562999/THOMPSON,%20ROBERT
and
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=15285606

chughes · 05-02-2015 10:38pm

Johnny, thanks for the postings of both battalions. Robert Thompson was married in 1904 to Bridget Delany so he must have been in the 2nd battalion at that stage as the battalion was based in Dublin then. At some stage he must have transferred to the 1st battalion as that was the one he was in when he was killed. Interestingly, when he married in 1904 he was a sergeant but when he was killed he was a lance corporal. It looks like he was demoted at some stage between 1904 and 1915.

KF, thanks also for your information. As I mentioned above, Bridget was originally Delany. She then became Thompson, and did remarry and became Carolan. I wasn't sure when she remarried but this helps to narrow down the date range.

BionicRasher · 06-02-2015 2:13pm

This is great info and really helpful. I had never know where to look for this stuff but reading these threads really helps
I have just started looking into some stuff and I have just found my Great Grandmothers brother (I think that makes him my great-great uncle!)
He was a Second Lieutenant in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers and only 18 when he was killed in Gallipoli

Whats the best subscription to take to find out more info on such a person?

KildareFan · 06-02-2015 2:20pm

Whats the best subscription to take to find out more info on such a person?
Military records are spread across a number of sites. The records are incomplete as many were destroyed in WW2, but a lot survived. You just have to be lucky.

Here's a website which gives some good information http://greatwarroadshow.ie/tracing-ww1-soldiers/

johnny_doyle · 06-02-2015 7:31pm

BionicRasher wrote: »

This is great info and really helpful. I had never know where to look for this stuff but reading these threads really helps
I have just started looking into some stuff and I have just found my Great Grandmothers brother (I think that makes him my great-great uncle!)
He was a Second Lieutenant in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers and only 18 when he was killed in Gallipoli

Whats the best subscription to take to find out more info on such a person?

Start with the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website to confirm rank, date and place of death, regiment. No cost for this

http://www.cwgc.org/

9 possibles but none listed as 18.

ANDREWS, WILLIAM Second Lieutenant 26/04/1915 32 Royal Dublin Fusiliers
STANTON, ROBERT Second Lieutenant 09/08/1915 29 Royal Dublin Fusiliers
MORTIMER, WILLIAM LIONEL GUERITZ Second Lieutenant 10/08/1915 20 Royal Dublin Fusiliers
McGARRY, WILLIAM FREDERICK CECIL Second Lieutenant 10/08/1915 Royal Dublin Fusiliers
O'CARROLL, FRANK BRENDAN Second Lieutenant 10/08/1915 20 Royal Dublin Fusiliers
WEATHERILL, EDWARD THEAKER Second Lieutenant 16/08/1915 28 Royal Dublin Fusiliers
CRICHTON, ALEXANDER GODFREY Second Lieutenant 16/08/1915 29 Royal Dublin Fusiliers
NESBITT, WILLIAM CHARLES Second Lieutenant 16/08/1915 40 Royal Dublin Fusiliers
HACKETT, HENRY ROBERT THEODORE Second Lieutenant 02/11/1915 19 Royal Dublin Fusiliers

The London Gazette should carry details of his commission. No cost for this

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/

Dublin archives in Pearse St will probably have a write up of him in the book Dublin Heroes (if I remember the name correctly).

After that. National archives at Kew probably have a file on him. That will cost.

Ancestry will have Medal Index Card and entries for Soldiers Died in the Great War and Ireland's Casualties. If 7th Battn RDF, possibly a mention in Henry Hanna's book re Pals at Suvla. If he went to a local school there may be a write up.

Pop his name on the forum.

BionicRasher · 06-02-2015 8:27pm

johnny_doyle wrote: »

Start with the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website to confirm rank, date and place of death, regiment. No cost for this

http://www.cwgc.org/

9 possibles but none listed as 18.

ANDREWS, WILLIAM Second Lieutenant 26/04/1915 32 Royal Dublin Fusiliers
STANTON, ROBERT Second Lieutenant 09/08/1915 29 Royal Dublin Fusiliers
MORTIMER, WILLIAM LIONEL GUERITZ Second Lieutenant 10/08/1915 20 Royal Dublin Fusiliers
McGARRY, WILLIAM FREDERICK CECIL Second Lieutenant 10/08/1915 Royal Dublin Fusiliers
O'CARROLL, FRANK BRENDAN Second Lieutenant 10/08/1915 20 Royal Dublin Fusiliers
WEATHERILL, EDWARD THEAKER Second Lieutenant 16/08/1915 28 Royal Dublin Fusiliers
CRICHTON, ALEXANDER GODFREY Second Lieutenant 16/08/1915 29 Royal Dublin Fusiliers
NESBITT, WILLIAM CHARLES Second Lieutenant 16/08/1915 40 Royal Dublin Fusiliers
HACKETT, HENRY ROBERT THEODORE Second Lieutenant 02/11/1915 19 Royal Dublin Fusiliers

The London Gazette should carry details of his commission. No cost for this

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/

Dublin archives in Pearse St will probably have a write up of him in the book Dublin Heroes (if I remember the name correctly).

After that. National archives at Kew probably have a file on him. That will cost.

Ancestry will have Medal Index Card and entries for Soldiers Died in the Great War and Ireland's Casualties. If 7th Battn RDF, possibly a mention in Henry Hanna's book re Pals at Suvla. If he went to a local school there may be a write up.

Pop his name on the forum.

Found him here.
http://ourheroes.southdublinlibraries.ie/node/17022

johnny_doyle · 07-02-2015 7:11pm

His CWGC record entry show him as a Lieutenant. Buried in Greece

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/333329/JONES,%20SAMUEL%20VICTOR%20CHARLES

His service record is available via the UK National Archives at Kew

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1107249?descriptiontype=Full&ref=WO+339/53396

Soldiers died entry has him as a Lieutenant

Name: Samuel Victor Charles Jones
Death Date: 23 Sep 1916
Rank: Lieutenant
Regiment: Royal Dublin Fusiliers
Battalion: Battalion Not Shown
Type of Casualty: Died of wounds

He appears in the RDF Medal Rolls as Died of Wounds. He is listed immediately above Lt Tom Kettle.

Medal Index Card has him as a Lieutenant. Awarded British War Medal and Victory Medal. Entered Salonika area of operations on the 23rd March 1916 so looks like he missed Gallipoli.

Inscribed on the following war memorial

http://www.irishwarmemorials.ie/Memorials-Detail?memoId=816

johnny_doyle · 07-02-2015 8:17pm

appointed temp 2nd Lt

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29193/page/5761

chughes · 07-02-2015 9:43pm

I mentioned in an earlier post about Robert Thompson being demoted from sergeant to lance corporal. I was looking at the book The 1st Royal Irish Rifles in the Great War by James W Taylor and in the section under Field general courts martial on 9 December 1914 Sergeant Thompson was found guilty of drunkenness and his sentence was to be reduced in the ranks.

He had been a sergeant at least since he got married in 1904 and a few months after this sentence was carried out he was killed. I presume this had a financial repercussion for his widow as I'm guessing that the war gratuity paid to her was based on his rank at the time of death.

Ponster · 07-02-2015 11:16pm

19 other Royal Dublin Fusiliers killed on that day so must have been a recorded battle I'd guess...

Tracing a soldier in Royal Irish Rifles

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