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Interesting Stuff Thread

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Comments

  • #6002
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    A minority is less than half. A majority is more than half. A plurality is the largest minority.

    Not necessarily. I know it's easy to think that a minority is what a majority is not, but:
    Full Definition of minority
    1a : the period before attainment of majority
    b : the state of being a legal minor
    2: the smaller in number of two groups constituting a whole; specifically : a group having less than the number of votes necessary for control
    3a : a part of a population differing from others in some characteristics and often subjected to differential treatment
    b : a member of a minority group <an effort to hire more minorities>

    I see where you're coming from with a plurality; in voting it's where a number of votes cast for an option in a contest of more than two options that is greater than the number cast for any other option but not more than half the total votes cast, so the concept is readily transferable (though it also means a number greater than another, so in some ways is interchangeable with majority), but I don't think Catholicism can be described as a plurality, can it? Not least because there's no voting involved.

    And, as I say, if we take Catholics as a minority in the context presented "Only religions which are minority groups care about religious freedom, odd that isn't it." then we have to accept that all religions (and atheism) by virtue of each being less than 50% of the worlds population are minority groups... so the statement is nonsensical; it now infers that all religions care about religious freedom, which is hardly remarkable, certainly not in the way Hotblack seemed to think.


  • #6003
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Absolam wrote: »
    Not necessarily. I know it's easy to think that a minority is what a majority is not, but:
    Full Definition of minority
    1a : the period before attainment of majority
    b : the state of being a legal minor
    2: the smaller in number of two groups constituting a whole; specifically : a group having less than the number of votes necessary for control
    3a : a part of a population differing from others in some characteristics and often subjected to differential treatment
    b : a member of a minority group <an effort to hire more minorities>
    That's consistent with my definition.
    And, as I say, if we take Catholics as a minority in the context presented "Only religions which are minority groups care about religious freedom, odd that isn't it." then we have to accept that all religions (and atheism) by virtue of each being less than 50% of the worlds population are minority groups...
    You just introduced a new criterion: the post you've quoted doesn't mention the world's population.

    So, for example, Catholics are not a minority in the context of the Irish population.

    Context is important: but the meaning of "minority" doesn't change.


  • #6004
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    From patheos.com
    A Florida Mayor May Be Removed from Office After Satanist Points Out Numerous Ethical Violations

    The Mayor of Deerfield Beach, Florida, Jean Robb, could be removed from office after the State Ethics Commission found “probably cause” that she misused her office to benefit her church.

    The alleged violations include:
    — Giving her pastor a beach parking sticker reserved for city employees.
    — Telling city officials involved in code enforcement to back off a luxury automobile dealership because the owner donated “two $500 checks” to her favorite charities.
    — Having the city clean up her church’s parking lot after an event.

    But maybe the most interesting aspect of this story is the person who filed these charges in the first place: Chaz Stevens, the Satanist activist best known for putting up a Festivus pole in the State Capitol and erecting other provocative displays on government property.

    Let that sink in, if you will: a Satanist pointing out ethical violations by a Christian. ;)


  • #6005
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You just introduced a new criterion: the post you've quoted doesn't mention the world's population.
    Well, no, not really; his post was referring to pauldla's patheos link "Catholic Bishop: We Must Stand Up for Persecuted Atheists All Over the World" (he quoted part of the piece in his post).
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    So, for example, Catholics are not a minority in the context of the Irish population. Context is important: but the meaning of "minority" doesn't change.
    All true, as you say context is important, and this was in a world context; were it purely in an Irish context, clearly the Bishop wouldn't represent a minority group caring about religious freedom, and Hotblacks post would be nonsense. The meaning of the word doesn't change (allowing for the fact that it does have different meanings), but what it means to Hotblacks assertion certainly does; if we accept your simple meaning of the word then his assertion is nonsense, because all religions are minority groups in that case. If we accept my meaning his assertion isn't relevant to the piece he quoted, and therefore... nonsense again.


  • #6006
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,033 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Why the willingness to engage with Absolam's diversionary tactics? The topic is a Catholic Bishop supporting atheists' right to a 'belief', at least to the extent that they should not be oppressed, not what a minority is or is not. It is not particularly relevant to anything and the reference in the quote about oppression of minority groups is a throw-away bit of pious hyperbole that the bishop did not expect to be analysed, he was using it as a figure of speech.

    Now await the challenge as to how I know it was a figure of speech as there is no proof, and yadda yadda.

    Catholic Bishop: We Must Stand Up for Persecuted Atheists All Over the World

    Confronted with these injustices we must not stand by. Moreover we should recognise that the oppression of atheists does not only violate the human rights of people like [Palestinian poet Ashraf] Fayadh, [Indonesian atheist] Alexander [Aan], Alber [Saber] and Karim [Ashraf Mohamed al-Banna], but represents a degradation of the fundamental principle that people should be free to hold their own beliefs without fearing for their life or liberty. History has shown time and time again that when one minority group is oppressed with impunity, others soon face the same fate.


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  • #6007
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    looksee wrote: »
    Why the willingness to engage with Absolam's diversionary tactics? The topic is a Catholic Bishop supporting atheists' right to a 'belief', at least to the extent that they should not be oppressed, not what a minority is or is not.
    Nothing at all diversionary; it's great to see anyone supporting people who are being persecuted, in my opinion. My objection was to the rather cynical proposition that only religions which are minority groups care about religious freedom, particularly given that the story clearly doesn't support the proposition.
    looksee wrote: »
    It is not particularly relevant to anything and the reference in the quote about oppression of minority groups is a throw-away bit of pious hyperbole that the bishop did not expect to be analysed, he was using it as a figure of speech. Now await the challenge as to how I know it was a figure of speech as there is no proof, and yadda yadda.
    True, it's not particularly relevant to anything, I suppose it's just interesting stuff.


  • #6008
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,850 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    pauldla wrote: »
    A sizable minority is still a minority though, is it not? Especially if the majority in this breakdown constitutes (counts on fingers) 77% of the overall figure.

    23% of the world's population is catholic? Assuming that figure is accurate as far as the RCC is concerned, we're back again to the question of how they count catholics...

    As for a minority, yes in the UK the RCC is a minority religion with a history of being persecuted by the state.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • #6009
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    23% of the world's population is catholic? Assuming that figure is accurate as far as the RCC is concerned, we're back again to the question of how they count catholics... As for a minority, yes in the UK the RCC is a minority religion with a history of being persecuted by the state.
    I'm not sure the Catholic Church do; though if you're saying the way they count them inflates the number, is there any reason to think any other religion counts them in a less inflatory manner? If not, then proportionately it's going to be about the same anyway, is it not?

    Still, if you're saying your comment about minorities was directed exclusively at Catholics in the UK, despite the Bishop you quoted talking about atheists all over the world, and your own curious failure to note the specificity of your own observation, I suppose it's only right to point out the Archbishop of Canterbury (a representative of the majority religious group in the UK) has also spoken out against curtailment of religious freedom, more than once in the last year or so. Which still seems to leave your comment looking nonsensical?


  • #6010
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,033 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Absolam wrote: »
    Nothing at all diversionary; it's great to see anyone supporting people who are being persecuted, in my opinion. My objection was to the rather cynical proposition that only religions which are minority groups care about religious freedom, particularly given that the story clearly doesn't support the proposition.

    True, it's not particularly relevant to anything, I suppose it's just interesting stuff.

    Completely agree about support for people who are being persecuted, and I also agree that the original story did not support that proposition. The Bishop did not claim Catholicism to be a minority religion and it was HD who appeared to take it off on that tangent - which I assume is what you were objecting to.

    However the diversion is in pursuing the discussion about what constitutes a minority religion. This could be picked up and taken to a new thread, rather than diluting the 'interesting stuff' that is raised in this thread.

    And now I am off topic and irrelevant, so I will stop.


  • #6011
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,850 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The Church of England has been a minority since 2001

    Life ain't always empty.



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  • #6012
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    looksee wrote: »
    Completely agree about support for people who are being persecuted, and I also agree that the original story did not support that proposition. The Bishop did not claim Catholicism to be a minority religion and it was HD who appeared to take it off on that tangent - which I assume is what you were objecting to.
    However the diversion is in pursuing the discussion about what constitutes a minority religion. This could be picked up and taken to a new thread, rather than diluting the 'interesting stuff' that is raised in this thread.

    And now I am off topic and irrelevant, so I will stop.
    Well... it seems that which Churches are minorities is interesting stuff for some, apparently :)


  • #6013
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    The Church of England has been a minority since 2001
    A minority (taking minority as less than a majority) of the population though; it's still the majority religion. Or as the spokesman for the Church of England in your article says "we are still the largest religious group in the country". Weren't you talking about religions which are minority groups? It seems we're back to either all religious groups are minorities, making your statement nonsense, or majority religious groups also care about religious freedom... making your statement nonsense.


  • #6014
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,850 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    And today we 'celebrate' the mythological instigator of 1600 years of religious oppression.

    Talk about history being written by the victors... how much better off we'd have been if christianity had never darkened our shores.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • #6015
    cowboyBuilder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,419 ✭✭✭cowboyBuilder


    I had this on the hazards thread, but is better here I think ..


    https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/the-best-podcast-ever

    Good podcast here with Sam Harris showing what a liar Omer Aziz is ..


  • #6016
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,397 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    And today we 'celebrate' the mythological instigator of 1600 years of religious oppression.
    Not everybody is celebrating:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z-dbFhQBmQ


  • #6017
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,654 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    cowboyBuilder wrote: »
    I had this on the hazards thread, but is better here I think ..


    https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/the-best-podcast-ever

    Good podcast here with Sam Harris showing what a liar Omer Aziz is ..


    I'm listening to it now, and Sam Harris was correct at the start - neither of them provide very interesting arguments for anything discussing Islam, but both of them just taking pot shots at each other's public image.

    It's three and a half hours long. I don't know if I can be bothered listening to another two and a half hours of this.


  • #6018
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    robindch wrote: »
    Not everybody is celebrating:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z-dbFhQBmQ

    That is the best thing ever. :D

    Actually, the follow up interview is pretty great too....



  • #6019
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,397 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Trying a clickbait intro here. Hope nobody minds.

    TEN AWESOME THINGS ABOUT RELIGION AND SUPERSTITION IN THE MIDDLE AGES WHICH WILL BLOW YOUR MIND. NUMBER SIX LEFT ME IN TEARS AND WILL MAKE YOU CRY TOO.

    http://www.historyextra.com/feature/medieval/10-things-you-probably-didnt-know-about-middle-ages


  • #6020
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,708 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    The United States Revokes Scientology’s Tax-Exempt Status
    In a unanimous decision by the Supreme Court today, the eight justices ruled in favor of revoking the Church of Scientology’s tax-exempt status in the United States. Under the ruling, Scientology will still be able to operate as a business but no longer as a non-profit religious organization.


    The case was brought forward by the Internal Revenue Service Criminal Investigation Division after concluding a two-year-long investigation into the inner workings of Scientology. The investigation, along with an extensive audit, found the group to be a “criminal operation with a sole purpose of making money”. The eight justices agreed with the IRS and its findings that Scientology was neither a religion or fell under the guidelines of a non-profit charitable organization.


    CI Special Agent, Tom Downey, worked closely with IRS Chief Counsel Criminal Tax Attorneys during the course of the investigation.
    “If private schools had similar prices to the courses in Scientology, students would receive the absolute highest level of education by the top educators in the country,” Downey said. “But in reality, based on the ridiculously high cost of Scientology, there is no school out there that even exists. The best schools in this country charge a fraction of the exorbitant amounts of money that Scientology charges its members.”

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #6021
    130Kph
    Closed Accounts Posts: 625 ✭✭✭130Kph


    Delirium wrote: »
    The United States Revokes Scientology’s Tax-Exempt Status

    It would be fantastic if this were the case but it looks like this is a fake article on an elaborate imitation of abcnews.go.com/. The url on this is abcnews.com.co/

    Definitely clickbait :)

    The site looks to be something like the onion e.g. another article is “The Unmasking: Ted Cruz is Definitely the Zodiac Killer" :eek:

    Edit: excuse - didn't have caffeine yet! :p


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  • #6022
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,708 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    130Kph wrote: »
    It would be fantastic if this were the case but it looks like this is a fake article on an elaborate imitation of abcnews.go.com/. The url on this is abcnews.com.co/

    Definitely clickbait :)

    The site looks to be something like the onion e.g. another article is “The Unmasking: Ted Cruz is Definitely the Zodiac Killer" eek;
    homer-simpson-doh-400x288.jpg

    :o:o

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #6023
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    And now that site's staff and owner(s) are on the Church of Scientology's sh*t list. :o


  • #6024
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    An interesting read ('How Europe was overrun by Christians') on churchandstate.org.uk, though I would like to have seen some sources quoted, and not quite so much polemic.


  • #6025
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,397 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    pauldla wrote: »
    [...] churchandstate.org.uk, though I would like to have seen some sources quoted, and not quite so much polemic.
    If churchandstate.org.uk spent as much time documenting its sources as it did on delivering high-octane polemic, it would be a mighty resource indeed.

    Unfortunately, it doesn't, and it isn't.


  • #6026
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,850 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Not religion-related, per se, but I suspect there's a CoE influence on Tories and Whitehall officials at work here:

    Apparently young people in the UK are having 'too much' anal sex and the answer (as usual) is to ban porn, with no idea of how that would be achieved and what the effect on civil liberties would be.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/anal-sex-young-people-consultation-dcms-government-tories-worried-thatcher-a6980041.html

    Life ain't always empty.



  • #6027
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,654 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Not religion-related, per se, but I suspect there's a CoE influence on Tories and Whitehall officials at work here:

    Apparently young people in the UK are having 'too much' anal sex and the answer (as usual) is to ban porn, with no idea of how that would be achieved and what the effect on civil liberties would be.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/anal-sex-young-people-consultation-dcms-government-tories-worried-thatcher-a6980041.html


    Anal sex has always been popular among the religious:

    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    People ignored their education then too, maybe you've heard of the "Catholic contraception" method? Not particularly a fan of it myself, but many young people think they were the first to try anything :rolleyes:


    Hipsters! :pac:


  • #6028
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,397 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    A guy visits North Korea with a video camera which isn't taken off him when he enters the country:

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLck1JSQ7ZKKQbBF5V8Iicz_5ZWDVRMuiP

    I was there in 2005 and, finger in the air, I'd say we did about 50% of what this guy did - tours don't change much in the Peoples' Republic.


  • #6029
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,397 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    robindch wrote: »
    Following Murdoch's takeover, NG fired around 10% of its staff in November.

    The lead story in December's issue is a fawning portrait of the worship of Holy Mary:
    And this month, an article on "The World's Newest Major Religion: No Religion" - an article which Jerry Coyne takes strong issue with.

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/04/160422-atheism-agnostic-secular-nones-rising-religion/

    Amongst other alleged issues, the article says that the non-religion is mostly while, mostly male, mostly privileged. And that the "most visible figures" are misogynist:
    National Geographic wrote:
    Some of the humanist movement’s most visible figures aren’t known for their respect toward women. Prominent atheists Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins have awful reputations for misogyny, as does the late Christopher Hitchens. Bill Maher, the comedian and outspoken atheist, is no (nonexistent) angel, either.


  • #6030
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    I gave up trying to find Ireland on that map. It appears to be centred on the north pole, presumably in an attempt to reduce "eurocentric bias" on the "normal" map. Years ago another guy came up with the Mercator Projection map which also made Europe look smaller, but it never really caught on.

    The text is along the same lines... Europe goes to the dogs, Africa and Asia save the day.


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  • #6031
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    recedite wrote: »
    I gave up trying to find Ireland on that map. It appears to be centred on the north pole, presumably in an attempt to reduce "eurocentric bias" on the "normal" map. Years ago another guy came up with the Mercator Projection map which also made Europe look smaller, but it never really caught on.

    The text is along the same lines... Europe goes to the dogs, Africa and Asia save the day.

    that Greenland and antartic privilege though :pac:

    mercator.png

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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