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First Irish born Golden Eagle for 100 years found poisoned in Sligo

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,580 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    johngalway wrote: »
    Quick search and read of your posts will show your attitude towards farmers I'm sure :)

    You might get the finger out and read some of my post were I stated the vast majority of sheep farmers do the right thing when it comes to dealing with vermin:rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    You might get the finger out and read some of my post were I stated the vast majority of sheep farmers do the right thing when it comes to dealing with vermin:rolleyes:

    I have read your posts by the by. But, because backseat modding is frowned upon I'm leaving the off topic stuff at that. It's been requested mods look at my contributions so let's leave them to their job, eh?

    As yet my on topic challenge to support the accusation that farmers are 100% to blame remains unsatisfied.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,580 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    "As this issue falls within the remit of the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Mr John Gormley TD, your correspondence has been forwarded to his Private Secretary for attention and direct reply to you."

    .

    Thats official speak for "we're really don't consider this an important enough matter to do anything practical about":mad:

    Depressingly Gormley's department came out with the exact same, lame, passing the buck, statement this time last year after yet more eagle deaths from this cause.

    I really don't understand the Green Parties inertia on this issue since if they dealt with it deceisivly they would regain at least a small part of their tattered credability among parts of their former potential electorate that have since given up on them:rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Thats official speak for "we're really don't consider this an important enough matter to do anything practical about":mad:

    Depressingly Gormley's department came out with the exact same, lame, passing the buck, statement this time last year after yet more eagle deaths from this cause.

    I really don't understand the Green Parties inertia on this issue since if they dealt with it deceisivly they would regain at least a small part of their tattered credability among parts of their former potential electorate that have since given up on them:rolleyes:

    Try Ciaran Cuffe when Gormley rotates with him in the cabinet reshuffle! :rolleyes: I had exactly the same response from Gormley via his useless Private Secretary a couple of years back. I'm a natural Green voter and have always voted for them in the past but next time I think I'll just stay at home.......:mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    It really is sad how this myth of eagles as a threat to sheep is still out there :rolleyes:
    Myth? In the wilds of Alaska they will swoop down and carry off new born Dall sheep lambs; that is a fact. I'm not advocating killing them but to say that a golden eagle will not target any lambs is ignoring their very nature as large predatory birds.

    JohnGalway, I understand that we cannot be certain that it was a sheep farmer but it's hard to imagine someone doing this who did not have a vested interest at stake. That said, the poison could have been put out for foxes too, right? If anything this whole issue should highlight the need to somehow clamp down on this poisoning practice.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,580 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Valmont wrote: »
    Myth? In the wilds of Alaska they will swoop down and carry off new born Dall sheep lambs; that is a fact. I'm not advocating killing them but to say that a golden eagle will not target any lambs is ignoring their very nature as large predatory birds.

    JohnGalway, I understand that we cannot be certain that it was a sheep farmer but it's hard to imagine someone doing this who did not have a vested interest at stake. That said, the poison could have been put out for foxes too, right? If anything this whole issue should highlight the need to somehow clamp down on this poisoning practice.

    Dall sheep are a wild species that are much smaller then our domestic breeds.



    In any case your talking about a totally different environment and prey base - all the studies on this in Europe show that the main live prey for these bird are(in order of importance) : Hare, fox(mainly cubs and young adults), Corvids, larger grouse, gulls, and rabbits were availiable. Carrion is also important in winter which makes them so vulnerable to poisoned baits. The fact is that Scotland with 600 pairs of Golden and 30-40 pairs of White-Tailed eagles manages to maintain a a healthy and productive sheep industry as large as ours. Norway has even more eagles and smaller breeds of sheep that live together harmoniously


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    Valmont wrote: »
    JohnGalway, I understand that we cannot be certain that it was a sheep farmer but it's hard to imagine someone doing this who did not have a vested interest at stake. That said, the poison could have been put out for foxes too, right? If anything this whole issue should highlight the need to somehow clamp down on this poisoning practice.

    I agree it's a possibility, however to single out a certain group of people in what is presumably quite a small area. Put it this way, if it happened near me, I'd not be at all happy, if you get my drift.

    As far as I am aware it's not allowed to poison foxes by law. I shoot and snare foxes, tried using live catch cages with no result.

    I don't put down poison for anything, mice and rats included.

    As for vested interests. I'll go back to the individual attempting to burn down his own house, while members of his family were still inside. People can be strange creatures in what they do. I have heard mention on this site of people besides farmers who also have vested interests in the way you describe.

    Anyway, at the moment it all amounts up to a lot of finger pointing and not much else.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Dall sheep are a wild species that are much smaller then our domestic breeds.

    While Wikipedia is by no means always accurate. I found >this< page interesting, especially visualising the weights of some of the animals covered under the GE's diet, notably young deer, fully grown deer, foxes, swans and mountain goats.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,580 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    johngalway wrote: »
    While Wikipedia is by no means always accurate. I found >this< page interesting, especially visualising the weights of some of the animals covered under the GE's diet, notably young deer, fully grown deer, foxes, swans and mountain goats.

    Golden Eagles are still used in parts of Mongolia to hunt wolves - does that mean your pet labrador is at risk if you go for a walk in the hills of Donegal??:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,580 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    johngalway wrote: »
    While Wikipedia is by no means always accurate. I found >this< page interesting, especially visualising the weights of some of the animals covered under the GE's diet, notably young deer, fully grown deer, foxes, swans and mountain goats.

    What species?? - Roe deer are very small and Muntjac deer are not much bigger then a large Hare

    PS: I'm suprised at a sheep farmer being upset at an eagle taking the odd fox!!


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  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 9,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭mayordenis


    This is the least level headed "debate" I've ever seen, I'm sure most everyone is sickened by what happened the bird,
    but johngalway is giving a fair and reasoned argument for his point attacking that with stupid rolleyes all the time is petty and childish.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,580 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    mayordenis wrote: »
    This is the least level headed "debate" I've ever seen, I'm sure most everyone is sickened by what happened the bird,
    but johngalway is giving a fair and reasoned argument for his point attacking that with stupid rolleyes all the time is petty and childish.

    Is he?? - he accused me earlier of hating farmers despite the fact that I'm from a farming backgound and currently live on a working farm in North Kildare:confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ Josephine Thankful Ice-skate


    This thread has really gone off the rails. Some of the Hunting forum have come onboard with all the demonising of Eagles and Grey Crows. (Just out of interest: how could anybody witness Crows plucking eyes or tongues from Lambs and not actually do anything to prevent it?) Others have slated all farmers as people who don't give a toss about wildlife. Let's be honest here. While it looks at the moment that this, and other poisonings, are down to farmers there is also evidence of poisoning of birds like Buzzards by Gun Club members.
    For the record: Golden Eagles in Alsaka are up to 50% larger than those re-introduced to Ireland.
    Personal attacks have taken over from the real debate here.
    Others have come onboard only to goad on the personal stuff with absolutely no contribution on the actual subject of the thread.
    Why sidetrack to the "danger" from Grey Crows when we are talking about Golden Eagles (who prey on such Crows).
    All too often this seems to happen with Nature threads (on many sites).
    Traffic is light enough on Boards.ie Nature without what little we have sinking into personal jibes and anti-wildlfe rants.
    I said on by first post on this thread that I didn't want to get dragged into this one, as I knew how it would develop.

    The thread is about the loss of a very important bird to Ireland. This chick represented a huge leap forward in re-introducing a valuable lost species. This poisioning, coupled with several other high profile cases, could mark the end of many re-introduction programmes. We are being labeled across Europe as a dangerous country for wildlife.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    This thread has really gone off the rails. Some of the Hunting forum have come onboard with all the demonising of Eagles and Grey Crows. (Just out of interest: how could anybody witness Crows plucking eyes or tongues from Lambs and not actually do anything to prevent it?) Others have slated all farmers as people who don't give a toss about wildlife. Let's be honest here. While it looks at the moment that this, and other poisonings, are down to farmers there is also evidence of poisoning of birds like Buzzards by Gun Club members.
    For the record: Golden Eagles in Alsaka are up to 50% larger than those re-introduced to Ireland.
    Personal attacks have taken over from the real debate here.
    Others have come onboard only to goad on the personal stuff with absolutely no contribution on the actual subject of the thread.
    Why sidetrack to the "danger" from Grey Crows when we are talking about Golden Eagles (who prey on such Crows).
    All too often this seems to happen with Nature threads (on many sites).
    Taffic is light enough on Boards.ie Nature without what little we have sinking into personal jibes and anti-wildlfe rants.
    I said on by first post on this thread that I didn't want to get dragged into this one, as I knew how it would develop.

    The thread is about the loss of a very important bird to Ireland. This chick represented a huge leap forward in re-introducing a valuable lost species. This poisioning, coupled with several other high profile cases, could mark the end of many re-introduction programmes. We are being labeled across Europe as a dangerous country for wildlife.

    1. If you are referring to me, I would be obliged to you that you quote me where I have been demonising eagles.

    2. (Out of your interest) You cannot baby sit animals on a working farm 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Instances of predation happen, sometimes you get there before they happen, such as seeing a crow, raven or other "stalking" the farm animal. Sometimes you come upon them in the act, but, they have already done the damage, sometimes you come upon the aftermath and the predator is gone. Life is not ideal. "Preventing" predation is called predator control, which involves legal methods of trapping, snaring and shooting predators.

    3. Again, if you are referring to me, I was asked a question, by Valmont I believe, so I answered it. Just like you asked "out of interest" above.

    I hear many things on forums I disagree with, but I don't jump up and down about them. Forums are for discussions, I read a charge levelled 100% against farmers in the absence of proof. I do not accept that charge 100% and I am justified in asking after the foundations of the charge and then asking the person who made the charge to prove it. They cannot. So some who didn't like the fact it can't be proved have saddled the high moral horse. But, the challenge remains, unsatisfied.

    I didn't make the silly remark, I only asked for it to be backed up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Golden Eagles are still used in parts of Mongolia to hunt wolves - does that mean your pet labrador is at risk if you go for a walk in the hills of Donegal??:rolleyes:
    Birdnuts wrote: »
    What species?? - Roe deer are very small and Muntjac deer are not much bigger then a large Hare

    PS: I'm suprised at a sheep farmer being upset at an eagle taking the odd fox!!

    I'll do a two for one with the above. My link to Wikipedia was only to illustrate that Eagles are capable of taking animals of the sizes and weights mentioned, not that the Irish Eagles are thinking about, or doing so, simply that they are capable of such an act.

    We're going back to quoting me again, I'm afraid, but, where did I say I was upset over any foxes being taken by Eagles? It would save me €1.60 per bullet, plus my time and petrol, I'd be distraught :D (the bold being a joke).
    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Is he?? - he accused me earlier of hating farmers despite the fact that I'm from a farming backgound and currently live on a working farm in North Kildare:confused:

    I have a friend in the North East of England. He hunts, shoots, snares, traps, ferrets, fishes... Eats what he hunts/catches... What else... Anyway, you get the drift. Last year he started going out with a vegetarian who absolutely hates the above. She recently accepted his marriage proposal, incidentally. How much weight would she have coming onto the hunting forum, not giving her own personal views, but making "strange" comments, then claiming she comes from a hunting household? I'm not saying you're doing this, but it's an interesting illustration I think.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭stevoman


    Right folks i have been watching this thread closely and i can see the points that people are making and everyone is intitled to have an opinion. It may seem that it is going a little off topic, but i think the issue has to be fully debated in the larger scheme of things.

    Im not a fan of issueing bannings, warnings and red cards but if i see anymore back seat modding or attempts as personal attacks or jibes thats exactly whats going to happen.

    Boneless and I Mod this forum and its at our discretion how we do that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,560 ✭✭✭✭Kess73


    johngalway wrote: »
    I'll do a two for one with the above. My link to Wikipedia was only to illustrate that Eagles are capable of taking animals of the sizes and weights mentioned, not that the Irish Eagles are thinking about, or doing so, simply that they are capable of such an act.


    Bit of a large difference between the Golden eagles used for hunting larger animals and the ones in Donegal. The subspecies of Golden Eagle that is used to aid in the hunting of wolves and the like is Aquila chrysaetos daphanea, which is the largest and most powerfully built Golden Eagle by a long way, with only the North American sub species being in it's size class.


    The species in Ireland is Aquila chrysaetos, which is simply nowhere near the strength and power class that the two sub species I named before are. In fact the size difference can be so great that it is comparable to the difference in size between a female sparrowhawk and a buzzard.


    I never got a chance to reply to you yesterday after you were good enough to list what you regarded as pests and why you would kill them. I don't agree with everything you said in that post as some of the cases would be rare enough events in my view, but I can see where you are coming from in each case though.

    The magpie one baffles me though, as it is an arguement I have heard used to justify the killing of them here and in the UK.

    The impact that magpies have upon songbird populations in not great at all, in fact the damage they do lags far behind what birds like the jay would do for example. It is not a pleasant sight, but it is natural and part of natures way of controlling the numbers.

    The biggest two threats to songbirds, both here and in the UK, are cats(domestic and feral) and man. It is estimated that cats will kill more small birds each year than all the other main avain threats combined.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ Josephine Thankful Ice-skate


    Well said Kess.

    Certainly comparisons with Golden Eagles elsewhere, as I said myself earlier, is pointless and shows little indepth knowledge on the subject.

    At the risk of going off topic, your comments on the Magpie are perfectly true. There is no corelation between Magpies and declines in songbird numbers. Indeed several studies show that the 2 populations seem to almost compliment each other in well balanced environments.
    I think we're arguing about instances of predation by birds (be they Crows or Raptors) that are so rare as to be insignificant and serve only to try and sway the argument.

    I think the problem here is that we have 2 schools of thought who will never agree. Strange for a Nature forum (others I contribute to all agree on the Golden Eagle issue) but there you are. Maybe it's healthy debate! :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,319 ✭✭✭Half-cocked


    Kess73 wrote: »
    The magpie one baffles me though, as it is an arguement I have heard used to justify the killing of them here and in the UK.

    The impact that magpies have upon songbird populations in not great at all, in fact the damage they do lags far behind what birds like the jay would do for example. It is not a pleasant sight, but it is natural and part of natures way of controlling the numbers.

    The biggest two threats to songbirds, both here and in the UK, are cats(domestic and feral) and man. It is estimated that cats will kill more small birds each year than all the other main avain threats combined.

    100% hit the nail on the head Kess. Just to add a bit more to this completely OT subject, magpies generally take eggs/hatchlings/fledglings, 90% of which will die anyway from natural causes before reaching breeding aga. Cats kill adult breeding birds, the 10% that have survived to breeding age - a far more serious impact on the population. Magpies have been here since the 1600's. Our songbirds have only suffered since the advent of modern agricultural practices and habitat loss in the 20th/21st century. I know its very un-PC to do so, but I know quite a few gun club members/gamekeepers who actively target feral cats as part of their vermin control and consider it far more important than culling magpies.

    To return to the main topic, I don't know the facts surrounding predation of lambs by eagles but surely there is some credible research on the subject somewhere? And if not, then there should be as part of the reintroduction programme. Perhaps eagles do take live lambs, but then this needs to be offset against the benefit of eagles controling other predators. If I was a sheep farmer and it was proved to me that having eagles meant losing a few lambs to them, but having other forms of predation reduced (foxes, grey crows etc) to the point where I was seeing a nett reduction in overall losses, I'd be happy to have the eagles around. I think that in the long term, if we are to see an end to indiscriminate poisoning of eagles, we need proper research and education on the subject of eagle predation. The eagles and kites that have been poisoned are receiving much publicity as they are monitored species, but I shudder to think how many buzzards are being poisoned unnoticed each year.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ Josephine Thankful Ice-skate


    ...I shudder to think how many buzzards are being poisoned unnoticed each year.

    I personally found 3 in Co. Louth in 2009 and heard of a few others. :(


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,319 ✭✭✭Half-cocked


    I personally found 3 in Co. Louth in 2009 and heard of a few others. :(

    I've heard of 2 families (2 adults, 2 juveniles each) suddenly disappearing in the North Dublin area. I'll bet they were poisoned too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    Kess73,

    Thanks for the clarification on the subspecies, I was not aware of that.

    As for magpies, what I can tell you from my own experience is that there were many less songbirds around here, going on what I was hearing out on my farm (which has a broad leaf wood on one side, plus high gorse in one area). When I began to control the numbers of magpies, there seemed to me to be a dramatic increase in the songbirds, again going on what I was hearing out and about.

    I agree with you about feral cats. Though they're not feral, my sister has two toms at her house near my farm, they're always dragging songbirds, frogs etc back to the house, not nice to see at all!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    I think the problem here is that we have 2 schools of thought who will never agree. Strange for a Nature forum (others I contribute to all agree on the Golden Eagle issue) but there you are. Maybe it's healthy debate! :)

    I think it is healthy. If you have a group of people who always agree on everything... Bit like politics, you've the middle ground on either side who can talk to each other, then the extreme left or right who will always disagree! Stifling debate is a bad thing IMO.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭stevoman


    I think we are done here and im going to lock this thread unless anyone has any further that they want to offer and then they can PM me.

    We seem to have moved onto another topic, one which i think is very interesting to birdwatchers, nature lovers and hunters alike and i think it will make for a great debate and discussion regarding cats, magpies and farming so im going to set up a new thread for that.


This discussion has been closed.
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