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what make it hard for me to believe

  • 08-12-2007 11:22pm
    #1
    juanveron45
    Closed Accounts Posts: 496 ✭✭


    I suppose because I was brought up as a christian I would consider myself to have some faith in god but I do have doubts , some people dont believe in god because of how could a loving god let bad things happen in the world ,This is not a reason why I would have doubts but things like the following make me doubt

    1.If somebody is born mentally retarded , whats there soul like in heaven, are they not mentally retarded anymore?and if this is so dont they cease to be the person they were on earth, I mean the soul is your own personality?

    2.what about aborted babies that havent even had an eartly conscious?in what kind of form do they exist?

    3. when a person dies do they remain the same perosn they were at the moment of death, what I mean is a persons personality changes constatly from birth to old age?


Comments

  • #2
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    juanveron45 wrote: »
    Hello, welcome to this forum :)
    juanveron45 wrote: »
    1.If somebody is born mentally retarded , whats there soul like in heaven, are they not mentally retarded anymore?and if this is so dont they cease to be the person they were on earth, I mean the soul is your own personality?
    Before the resurrection we will exist in Heaven as spiritual beings but incomplete because we will lack bodies. And considering that intelligence comes from the spirit, brain faculty wouldn't be a problem any more. After the resurrection, we will have new glorified bodies somehow reconstructed from our old bodies but which will be perfect.
    juanveron45 wrote: »
    2.what about aborted babies that havent even had an eartly conscious?in what kind of form do they exist?
    I thinks the above applies also.
    juanveron45 wrote: »
    3. when a person dies do they remain the same perosn they were at the moment of death, what I mean is a persons personality changes constatly from birth to old age?
    When we die our will will be fixed either in loving God or hating God depending on the whether sanctify grace exists in our soul at the point of death. I don't know how our personality will be but it won't include any selfishness. Our self-love will be replaced with pure love of God and we will be confirmed in ever-lasting good.

    God bless,
    Noel.


  • #3
    Vengeance
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Vengeance


    juanveron45 wrote: »
    1.If somebody is born mentally retarded , whats there soul like in heaven, are they not mentally retarded anymore?and if this is so dont they cease to be the person they were on earth, I mean the soul is your own personality?


    Well since they are the way they are, and God wouldn't have created them to be something different, then they would be, yes, because it is part of their personality.
    A question to ask also is, would intellect in its form on earth be of any use in heaven?


    juanveron45 wrote: »
    2.what about aborted babies that havent even had an eartly conscious?in what kind of form do they exist?


    Logically, they would not go to heaven as their form is incomplete and without conscious. If they did then all sperm and ova would also be in heaven.

    juanveron45 wrote: »
    3. when a person dies do they remain the same perosn they were at the moment of death, what I mean is a persons personality changes constatly from birth to old age?


    I would like to think so, however it makes sense for it to be the personality you have at the moment of death.
    E.G.
    If someone behaved badly or in an evil way in their younger years and later found God and behaved accordingly and was forgiven, they are hardly going to go into heaven a nasty person.



    Another question on this is what if, like Satan the Accuser, you went to heaven and decided that God was not purely good or disaggreed with his sometimes wrathful and hurtful ways on earth. Would you be cast down for questioning him?

    Respectfully,
    Vengeance


  • #4
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Vengeance wrote: »

    Well since they are the way they are, and God wouldn't have created them to be something different, then they would be, yes, because it is part of their personality.
    A question to ask also is, would intellect in its form on earth be of any use in heaven?

    Someone who is born mentally retarded on Earth, on entry to HEaven is given a new body, a perfect body, so they would no longer be mentally retarded. Same is true for someone born without limbs, or loses them during life.



    Vengeance wrote: »
    Logically, they would not go to heaven as their form is incomplete and without conscious. If they did then all sperm and ova would also be in heaven.]

    Logically they would go to Heaven with conscious awareness as they are humans. Sperm and ova are not humans, they are the, wont for a better term, the necessary building blocks for a human, yet there is no human until they join.
    Vengeance wrote: »
    [[I would like to think so, however it makes sense for it to be the personality you have at the moment of death.
    E.G.
    If someone behaved badly or in an evil way in their younger years and later found God and behaved accordingly and was forgiven, they are hardly going to go into heaven a nasty person.]

    I can agree with this.
    Vengeance wrote: »
    [[[Another question on this is what if, like Satan the Accuser, you went to heaven and decided that God was not purely good or disaggreed with his sometimes wrathful and hurtful ways on earth. Would you be cast down for questioning him?

    Respectfully,
    Vengeance

    Not cast down for questioning God, as God welcomes questions and search for knowledge. I look forward to learning a ton in Heaven and having an eternity to do so.

    Whether or not you can leave is unanswered. I don't know why you'd want to though.


  • #5
    Vengeance
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Vengeance


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Someone who is born mentally retarded on Earth, on entry to HEaven is given a new body, a perfect body, so they would no longer be mentally retarded. Same is true for someone born without limbs, or loses them during life.

    Not really the point i was trying to make. What i was trying to say was that sometimes a mental disability or physical disability can form or affect someone's personality. On that note, if that was changed they wouldn't enter heaven as the same person, would they?
    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Logically they would go to Heaven with conscious awareness as they are humans. Sperm and ova are not humans, they are the, wont for a better term, the necessary building blocks for a human, yet there is no human until they join.

    There is research pointing out that human beings aren't sentient until a specific time in development. What the OP said concerns a time before that. Additionally, they cannot be accepted into heaven without accepting God first, correct? And if they don't know what that is.... etc.
    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Not cast down for questioning God, as God welcomes questions and search for knowledge. I look forward to learning a ton in Heaven and having an eternity to do so.

    Apologies, i meant accusing. What if the question itself was valid and made the other angels doubt God? Is what Satan did detailed enough to dismiss this theory?:confused:
    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Whether or not you can leave is unanswered. I don't know why you'd want to though.

    I agree, i wouldn't if all was as promised.

    What if you got to heaven and realised that God did not have all the answers? I would leave on principle if they were promised and nobody was forthcoming! :rolleyes:

    Respectfully,
    Vengeance


  • #6
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Vengeance wrote: »
    Not really the point i was trying to make. What i was trying to say was that sometimes a mental disability or physical disability can form or affect someone's personality. On that note, if that was changed they wouldn't enter heaven as the same person, would they?]
    From what I know of personalities there are 4 basic types. Anty one who is retarded would still fit into one of these types and maintain that on entry into Heaven. My thought is that when I get into Heaven I would still be my good ol' Otter fun type yet be worked inot the other three so that I would become a more rounded individual.

    For more on personality types: www.new-life.net/persnty.htm

    Vengeance wrote: »
    [There is research pointing out that human beings aren't sentient until a specific time in development. What the OP said concerns a time before that. Additionally, they cannot be accepted into heaven without accepting God first, correct? And if they don't know what that is.... etc.]

    The Op mentions aborted babies. That means that conception has occured and a person has been formed. I think that person enters Heaven as they have not reached an age of accountability. (a whole other topic I'm afraid)
    Vengeance wrote: »
    FONT=Palatino Linotype]Apologies, i meant accusing. What if the question itself was valid and made the other angels doubt God? Is what Satan did detailed enough to dismiss this theory?:confused:[/FONT

    Satan attempted a coup. He wished to take over Heaven and defeat God. If someone was in Heaven accusing God, I think God would have a chat with them. I had to do that with my boys soccer team last night. Have a chat with a couple of disrupters. They are still in the team.


    Vengeance wrote: »
    [What if you got to heaven and realised that God did not have all the answers? I would leave on principle if they were promised and nobody was forthcoming! :rolleyes:

    Respectfully,
    Vengeance

    I think this a moot point as God will have all the answers.


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  • #7
    condra
    Registered Users Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭condra


    Of course, mentally retarded people can go to Hell too surely?


  • #8
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    womoma wrote: »
    Of course, mentally retarded people can go to Hell too surely?
    I asked that questions many many years ago and the answer from a priest was no they would not go to hell. That of course raised a different question: why would God allow there to be mentally retarded people. I do not remember the answer I was given to that one.
    These type of questions and lack of a realistic anwer in my case were a major deciding factor to become a Buddhist since Buddhism does supply a plausible answer to me in the form of Karma.


  • #9
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Asiaprod wrote: »
    I asked that questions many many years ago and the answer from a priest was no they would not go to hell. That of course raised a different question: why would God allow there to be mentally retarded people. I do not remember the answer I was given to that one.
    These type of questions and lack of a realistic anwer in my case were a major deciding factor to become a Buddhist since Buddhism does supply a plausible answer to me in the form of Karma.
    Surely mental retardation is a genetic problem which was most likely caused by humans in the first place e.g. toxic substances, radiation, physical damages etc?

    God has a plan for everyone and maybe it is God's plan that other people would learn patience and charity by having to care for a mentally retarded person.
    John 9:1 And Jesus passing by, saw a man, who was blind from his birth: 2 And his disciples asked him: Rabbi, who hath sinned, this man, or his parents, that he should be born blind? 3 Jesus answered: Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents; but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. 4 I must work the works of him that sent me, whilst it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world. 6 When he had said these things, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and spread the clay on his eyes, 7 And said to him: Go, wash in the pool of Siloe, which is interpreted, Sent. He went therefore, and washed, and he came seeing.


  • #10
    stevejazzx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    womoma wrote: »
    Of course, mentally retarded people can go to Hell too surely?


    Yes but only if their sins or evil or bad deeds were not a product of thier mental retardation, otherwise it would be essentially God punishing them for evil they had no control over, and since they were created that way intially by God and that they themselves have had no input* (*or any input they have had is distorted by their initial disadvantage) into thier own personalities and into shaping their own ideas of the world and their place in it - if he was to punish them in this scenario he would be essentially be punishing himself for his own creation.
    It would have to be shown therefore that their sinning had nothing to do with their mental disposition which is something only God could know.


  • #11
    stevejazzx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Surely mental retardation is a genetic problem which was most likely caused by humans in the first place e.g. toxic substances, radiation, physical damages etc?

    So all the ugliness and deformation and corruption in the world is a product of humans?

    I'd love to know your thoughts on that....?


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  • #12
    condra
    Registered Users Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭condra


    Ok. From a Christian point of view, what is the point of miscarriages? (spontaneous abortion)

    Why does God let/make them happen?

    Does the aborted embroy/fetus go to heaven?


  • #13
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    stevejazzx wrote: »
    So all the ugliness and deformation and corruption in the world is a product of humans?
    Do you mean in a physical or spiritual sense? I presume you mean physical and my answer to this is that I don't know. I do believe though that all the evil in the world is caused by humans (with some help from the devil).


  • #14
    stevejazzx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Do you mean in a physical or spiritual sense? I presume you mean physical and my answer to this is that I don't know.
    kelly1 wrote:
    Surely mental retardation is a genetic problem which was most likely caused by humans.....

    ?

    kelly1 wrote:
    I do believe though that all the evil in the world is caused by humans (with some help from the devil).


    So is all the good in the world also casued by humans? Or are we just responsible for all the bad?


  • #15
    stevejazzx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    womoma wrote: »
    Ok. From a Christian point of view, what is the point of miscarriages? (spontaneous abortion)

    The christian answer is easy:

    It is the path that either

    a) god has chose for them, to test them ect etc

    b) that they have chose for themsleves with their own free will

    The point is that either God makes it happen for whatever reason and if it's a terrible ordeal christians say 'just have faith' as he is testing you or otherwise thye'll say we all have free will and whatever decisions you have made to this point have lead you here.

    Le's take an extreme example:

    An 13 year old is raped. She aborts. Now what is the point of that, why did God allow that to happen? We can't blame the childs free will for the situation so we've only got 2 options left

    a) the rapists free will casued it to happen
    (in this case there is the paradox or irony that although the idea of humans having free will tends to keep god out of the argument, it doesn't in this case becasue we are supposing that other people with god given free will can destroy innocent peoples lives so essentially the process that god started has lead to the event so either way god is behind it


    b)or simply god made it happen directly as some kind of test for the girl

    So it's down to Gods plan for us all becasue either directly or indirectly he is behind everything that happens..


    womoma wrote:
    Does the aborted embroy/fetus go to heaven?

    Well...I'm not sure anyone can give a definite answer..the last time e had this conversation the experts hadn't all agreed!


  • #16
    Vengeance
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Vengeance


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Surely mental retardation is a genetic problem which was most likely caused by humans in the first place e.g. toxic substances, radiation, physical damages etc?

    Toxic substances are found everywhere, and they are God's creation no?

    You're placing the blame on human beings when a lot of the time, no reason caused by a human being is at fault. Take down syndrome, thats a problem with chromosomes, them having an extra one.

    It can easily happen that a woman has three children, each cared for in utero the exact same way, with only one being born with down's syndrome. So if its purely a genetic problem in that case then there is also an element of randomness about it, which is beyond human control.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    God has a plan for everyone and maybe it is God's plan that other people would learn patience and charity by having to care for a mentally retarded person.

    Thats not very fair on the mentally handicapped, is it? I don't know much about you, or your experiences with the mentally handicapped, but there are a lot of disabilities that i would rather die than have. The pain and suffering these people go through is simply put, unfair. A lot of them do not understand why this is happening to them, which upsets them greatly.

    For me, seeing someone in that state is far worse than having to look after them. If you love someone like a child or a brother or sister or even a friend who has that kind of disability, you forget the hard work involved because if you can make them happy for one moment.... its worth it.

    I've stated a few times i'm agnostic. If i made my mind up to believe firmly in God, i doubt i would like him. If he can make life eternal in heaven, then death and decay on earth is pointless.

    If it is to test people, then its a flawed and unfair test, biased towards the negative, with people being expected to choose one of many many religions in which to worship him when each tells you it is the right path.

    I can only expect a backlash from these comments, but my intention is not to insult beliefs, just put forward my opinion so you may better understand your own and to receive interesting opinions from you so i may better understand mine.

    Respectfully,
    Vengeance


  • #17
    condra
    Registered Users Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭condra


    stevejazzx wrote: »
    The christian answer is easy:

    It is the path that either

    a) god has chose for them, to test them ect etc

    b) that they have chose for themsleves with their own free will

    The point is that either God makes it happen for whatever reason and if it's a terrible ordeal christians say 'just have faith' as he is testing you or otherwise thye'll say we all have free will and whatever decisions you have made to this point have lead you here.

    Le's take an extreme example:

    An 13 year old is raped. She aborts. Now what is the point of that, why did God allow that to happen? We can't blame the childs free will for the situation so we've only got 2 options left

    a) the rapists free will casued it to happen
    (in this case there is the paradox or irony that although the idea of humans having free will tends to keep god out of the argument, it doesn't in this case becasue we are supposing that other people with god given free will can destroy innocent peoples lives so essentially the process that god started has lead to the event so either way god is behind it


    b)or simply god made it happen directly as some kind of test for the girl

    So it's down to Gods plan for us all becasue either directly or indirectly he is behind everything that happens..

    The theory that there is no such thing as a god, that this is simply physics and nature, is much less grotesque.


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