"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

bk · 27-08-2013 8:39pm

Hell even the US Airforce is going to use iPads as electronic flight bags now:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewstibbe/2013/05/30/u-s-air-force-will-save-50m-with-ipad-electronic-flight-bags/

Please go ahead and try and tell me that the frigging US Air Force is going to use unreliable tablets! :rolleyes:

L1011 · 27-08-2013 8:43pm

cdebru wrote: »

Again the price of a subsidised or unsubsidised mobile phone is irrelevant.

The only people the price of mass-market hardware is irrelevant to are those who won't be left in this market in five years time. Head in the sand approach never works.

cdebru · 27-08-2013 9:12pm

bk wrote: »

I'm sorry but it is very comparable. Look at an airline like Southwest Airlines in the US (think Ryanair), their airlines are definitely utilised 20+ hours a day 7 days a week and I can assure you the iPads are being used constantly throughout this time and have been thoroughly tested by the FAA for reliability.

It is laughable that people would think that any electronic devices on a commercial airline, in particular any as important as an electronic flight bag isn't ridiculously thoroughly tested. Way beyond anything the DB would ever do.

Will they be using them in a constant on working state for that time? Will they be using them for GPS, will they be issuing tickets with them, will they be connected to a network?

Will they have a back up in the form of written flight manuals, will the plane be able to operate if the tablet is not operating ? Will the airline lose money if the tablet is not functioning ?

Will the tablet be subject to huge temperature changes like on a bus parked overnight during the winter?

cdebru · 27-08-2013 9:16pm

MYOB wrote: »

The only people the price of mass-market hardware is irrelevant to are those who won't be left in this market in five years time. Head in the sand approach never works.

No a 40 euro android phone can not be used as a ticket machine so it is irrelevant, when questioned the poster is now saying 1000 euro for a tablet based ticketing system, so why even mention a 40 euro phone? I could probably buy a digital watch for a tenner with more memory than the wayfarer but as it cant be used as a ticket machine it is also irrelevant.

cdebru · 27-08-2013 9:23pm

TheBandicoot wrote: »

I'd love to get a representative from Wayfarer onto this thread to see where they see the future of on bus ticketing equipment. I'm sure they have done lots of research into the Android tablet universe. Maybe they are trying to pivot into a software business?

A tablet with android that is specifically built with the operating conditions for city bus services in mind, would be a different kettle of fish to an off the shelf mass market tablet with an expected life span of maybe 3 to 4 years under normal usage.

Lets not forget these devices are not built to last the model is for specifically for a short life span, hence why most of them don't even have access to change batteries for example.

L1011 · 27-08-2013 10:09pm

cdebru wrote: »

No a 40 euro android phone can not be used as a ticket machine so it is irrelevant, when questioned the poster is now saying 1000 euro for a tablet based ticketing system, so why even mention a 40 euro phone? I could probably buy a digital watch for a tenner with more memory than the wayfarer but as it cant be used as a ticket machine it is also irrelevant.

I'd actually be pretty certain that you could use any landfill android device as the main unit for this. The software is the core part of all this, and its not like they got the Leap modifications for free.

Printer/card reader/etc would all be separately purchasable and replaceable parts on a Wayfarer just as with any other system.

The watch analogy fails entirely when the other system in use is Android.

PC-based tills killed cash registers effectively dead in the space of a few years and I can tell you that the board in the tills I supply is effectively the same as a very cheap laptop with an interface board added to the end. Hence why they cost about as much as a cash register yet can do hugely more.

bk · 27-08-2013 10:57pm

cdebru wrote: »

Will they be using them in a constant on working state for that time? Will they be using them for GPS, will they be issuing tickets with them, will they be connected to a network?

Hmm.. I read a fantastic article about all this written by one of the American Airlines pilots who originally tested this which answers most of your questions and had fantastic pictures, but unfortunately I can't find it now. I'll keep looking.

But to answer your questions. Yes the iPad is mounted in the cockpit in front of the pilot and slightly to the side. They are powered on an active from before takeover, through the entire flight till landing.

They are in continuous constant use at all times. Flying involves lots and lots of checklists for every situation imaginable (pre-flight checks, fuel checks and calculations, cruising checklists, landing checklists, post flight checklists and emergency checklists) all of these are now stored on the ipads, along with the details of all airports (runway lengths, approach routes, altitudes, etc.) and also the full airline manuals!

This video should give you some idea:
http://www.mactrast.com/2013/06/apples-ipad-now-in-use-in-all-american-airlines-cockpits/

These things are in absolute constant use on a flight deck. Much more then they would be used even on a bus!

No GPS wouldn't be in use on a commercial airline, but it would be used on small private aircraft. Likewise GPS wouldn't be used on a DB bus, as they already have GPS systems with RTPI, but the GPS would be used on private operators who don't already have that functionality.

Yes, the ipads would be connected to a network to receive updates etc.

No obviously they won't be issuing tickets with them :rolleyes: But then neither would they on DB, a separate printer prints the actual ticket, an app just runs the ticketing software on the tablet.

cdebru wrote: »

Will they have a back up in the form of written flight manuals, will the plane be able to operate if the tablet is not operating ? Will the airline lose money if the tablet is not functioning ?

Each commercial flight has three iPads, the pilots, co-pilots and a spare kept in the cabin. This is the same as was previously kept, but in paper form.

If one tablet breaks, then one of the other two is used. If all three suddenly break (unlikely), no the plane will still operate, though a pilot would likely call in an emergency due to technical difficulties and the air traffic controllers would radio them the relevant information (direction, approach to runway, etc.).

Without the tablets an aircraft can still fly, but not to it's normal procedures.

Yes, if all three tablets aren't working, the airline would lose money due to an emergency needing to be declared and the ensuing bad PR. An airline would lose far more money then a few broken DB ticket machines.

I'd also point out that the leap card on the wayfarers frequently don't work. I'd say at this stage I've gotten about 20 free trips due to leap/wayfarer not working and the driver waving me on. I'm not even a frequent daily bus user! So I'd ask you, how much money is DB losing with the current wayfarer machines?

cdebru wrote: »

Will the tablet be subject to huge temperature changes like on a bus parked overnight during the winter?

LOL, what do you think happens to planes parked on the apron overnight in freezing conditions in somewhere like Boston airport!! Seriously hilarious.

I'm sorry, but tablets have been proven incredibly robust by their use in the airline industry. One of the most safety concious and heavily regulated industries in the world. Dublin Bus ticket machine operations wouldn't come within even a long shot of how heavily they would be used on an airline.

It really is laughable to say that their aren't robust enough for Dublin Bus, while the US Air Force and almost all US commercial airlines are using them!

Victor · 27-08-2013 11:08pm

pclive wrote: »

Its all well and good discussing this issue here but has anyone taken the time to write to leapcard/dublin bus or the minister to complain about this.

I received a reply back from leapcard stating that they are aware of the problem and that a software upgrade is being prepared to speed up the transactions. This softare upgrade will be rolled out across the Dublin Bus fleet in the coming weeks.

Why not take the time to email the minister at minister@dttas.ie highlighting the issues with the leap card roll out.

No offence, but the minister wouldn't know what a ticket machine was if it hit him. Politicians don't do detail.

I mentioned to the NTA the problem Alek was having on 20 June and again on 1 July. It was investigated 3 July. I re-raised the issue on 15 August. The next day I was told what the identified problems were. On 26 August, I was informed there was a software patch that is being tested this week. If successful, it will then be rolled out across the fleet.

Victor · 27-08-2013 11:11pm

bk wrote: »

It really is laughable to say that their aren't robust enough for Dublin Bus, while the US Air Force and almost all US commercial airlines are using them!

How many potholes do these planes experience? Do they process 125,000 tickets per year?

AlekSmart · 27-08-2013 11:23pm

MYOB wrote: »

The only people the price of mass-market hardware is irrelevant to are those who won't be left in this market in five years time. Head in the sand approach never works.

At this stage it's is readily apparent that a significant proportion of the ITS group were comprehensively in Ostrich mode over the past 10 years.

The Tablet vs Dedicated debate is largely irrelevant to me as a Busdriver,I just want the damn thing to work and make my job as easy as it can be.

As it currently stands the Leap/Wayfarer hiatus is causing confusion,frustration,distraction and revenue loss,yet apart from a nudge & wink "We know about it" response from the NTA,the situation stumbles on with nobody appearing too concerned.

I would wager that if Dublin Bus was part of First Group,Stagecoach or Arriva then the NTA would'nt be getting the soft ride it's currently getting away with !

Some acknowledgement of this failure has to be made,along with an apology to both Staff and Customers who were,and who remain,all-at-sea about whatever is developing.

bk · 27-08-2013 11:27pm

Victor wrote: »

How many potholes do these planes experience? Do they process 125,000 tickets per year?

Errr... have you been on a plane while it lands? Far more jarring then any pothole!

No obviously they don't process 125,000 tickets per year, but that is nothing particularly impressive compared to pilots using them all day every day for mission critical functions.

But again DB some how has more rigour-us operating environment then the US Air Force and the FAA :rolleyes:

AlekSmart wrote: »

The Tablet vs Dedicated debate is largely irrelevant to me as a Busdriver,I just want the damn thing to work and make my job as easy as it can be.

Totally fair comment, if they can make the Wayfarer work speedily and correctly and add new functionality like online top-ups and tag-on/tag-off then I'd be completely satisfied with it too.

But looking at the spec of the wayfarer machines, I feel very sorry for the developers who have too work on this. Total nightmare implementing so much functionality on such underpowered hardware.

AlekSmart · 27-08-2013 11:33pm

Victor wrote: »

No offence, but the minister wouldn't know what a ticket machine was if it hit him. Politicians don't do detail.

I mentioned to the NTA the problem Alek was having on 20 June and again on 1 July. It was investigated 3 July. I re-raised the issue on 15 August. The next day I was told what the identified problems were. On 26 August, I was informed there was a software patch that is being tested this week. If successful, it will then be rolled out across the fleet.

Wow Victor....That really is some timeline for an industry priding itself on speed of response ?

We are not talking about some PC huxters-shop on Moore or Parnell St,but the highest level of State involvement...with that level of response-lag,either the problem is of significantly greater complexity than admitted OR it is outside the capabilities of the ITS staff to address.

Either way,given that we are embroiled in a lengthy soft-launch procedure,it does not bode well for the long-term reliability of the ITS programme if every added capability can be expected to result in a shambles such as this ?

Aard · 28-08-2013 12:12am

I think the essence of bk's point is pertinent in that there are cheaper options that give >1mb of memory.

cdebru · 28-08-2013 12:24am

bk wrote: »

Hmm.. I read a fantastic article about all this written by one of the American Airlines pilots who originally tested this which answers most of your questions and had fantastic pictures, but unfortunately I can't find it now. I'll keep looking.

But to answer your questions. Yes the iPad is mounted in the cockpit in front of the pilot and slightly to the side. They are powered on an active from before takeover, through the entire flight till landing.

They are in continuous constant use at all times. Flying involves lots and lots of checklists for every situation imaginable (pre-flight checks, fuel checks and calculations, cruising checklists, landing checklists, post flight checklists and emergency checklists) all of these are now stored on the ipads, along with the details of all airports (runway lengths, approach routes, altitudes, etc.) and also the full airline manuals!

This video should give you some idea:
http://www.mactrast.com/2013/06/apples-ipad-now-in-use-in-all-american-airlines-cockpits/

These things are in absolute constant use on a flight deck. Much more then they would be used even on a bus!

No GPS wouldn't be in use on a commercial airline, but it would be used on small private aircraft. Likewise GPS wouldn't be used on a DB bus, as they already have GPS systems with RTPI, but the GPS would be used on private operators who don't already have that functionality.

Yes, the ipads would be connected to a network to receive updates etc.

No obviously they won't be issuing tickets with them :rolleyes: But then neither would they on DB, a separate printer prints the actual ticket, an app just runs the ticketing software on the tablet.

Each commercial flight has three iPads, the pilots, co-pilots and a spare kept in the cabin. This is the same as was previously kept, but in paper form.

If one tablet breaks, then one of the other two is used. If all three suddenly break (unlikely), no the plane will still operate, though a pilot would likely call in an emergency due to technical difficulties and the air traffic controllers would radio them the relevant information (direction, approach to runway, etc.).

Without the tablets an aircraft can still fly, but not to it's normal procedures.

Yes, if all three tablets aren't working, the airline would lose money due to an emergency needing to be declared and the ensuing bad PR. An airline would lose far more money then a few broken DB ticket machines.

I'd also point out that the leap card on the wayfarers frequently don't work. I'd say at this stage I've gotten about 20 free trips due to leap/wayfarer not working and the driver waving me on. I'm not even a frequent daily bus user! So I'd ask you, how much money is DB losing with the current wayfarer machines?

LOL, what do you think happens to planes parked on the apron overnight in freezing conditions in somewhere like Boston airport!! Seriously hilarious.

I'm sorry, but tablets have been proven incredibly robust by their use in the airline industry. One of the most safety concious and heavily regulated industries in the world. Dublin Bus ticket machine operations wouldn't come within even a long shot of how heavily they would be used on an airline.

It really is laughable to say that their aren't robust enough for Dublin Bus, while the US Air Force and almost all US commercial airlines are using them!

See you are playing up the use, they will be used mainly as e readers for the various checklists, not in constant use, secondly they are issued to as far as I can see to flight crew, not permanently fixed to aircraft which means each tablet will operate to maximum pilot flying hours which is 100 hours a month even allowing for flight preparation time they would in no way ever be operating near the 560 +hours a month a ticket machine would be operating.
As they are not permanently fixed to the aircraft they would not be exposed to the same conditions as a tablet permanently a fixed to a bus, no matter how cold it gets in Boston the tablet will be in a house or hotel.

The airlines as you say are putting in triple redundancy and still some manuals, and charts in paper have to be carried. The tablets are not vital to flight so saying they are safe enough for airlines is misleading even ignoring the triple redundancy and paper back up

Your point about the current wayfarer would only be valid if I was arguing that the current wayfarer is up to the job which it clearly isn't so I'm not arguing that. But that does not mean wayfarer machines are flawed they aren't the modern machines are in operation for major transport companies without issue.

cdebru · 28-08-2013 12:31am

Victor wrote: »

No offence, but the minister wouldn't know what a ticket machine was if it hit him. Politicians don't do detail.

I mentioned to the NTA the problem Alek was having on 20 June and again on 1 July. It was investigated 3 July. I re-raised the issue on 15 August. The next day I was told what the identified problems were. On 26 August, I was informed there was a software patch that is being tested this week. If successful, it will then be rolled out across the fleet.

I wonder where it is being tested?

In one garage on a set number of buses with feedback from drivers to see if the problem is resolved? Or more likely on a machine in an office set up, which in no way replicates the in service conditions.

cdebru · 28-08-2013 12:41am

MYOB wrote: »

I'd actually be pretty certain that you could use any landfill android device as the main unit for this. The software is the core part of all this, and its not like they got the Leap modifications for free.

Printer/card reader/etc would all be separately purchasable and replaceable parts on a Wayfarer just as with any other system.

The watch analogy fails entirely when the other system in use is Android.

PC-based tills killed cash registers effectively dead in the space of a few years and I can tell you that the board in the tills I supply is effectively the same as a very cheap laptop with an interface board added to the end. Hence why they cost about as much as a cash register yet can do hugely more.

printer and card reader are part of the ticket machine not seperate.
I would love to see you using a 2•5" screen to issue tickets, update stages on etc .

Yet again, the 40 euro phone has no relationship to a ticket machine, it was imo used for dramatic effect, ie this stuff only costs 40 euro whats the problem? BK has admitted that an android based tablet ticket machine would cost in the region of 1000 euro, since no one knows the cost of wayfarer machine the cost is moot because who knows if 1000 is cheaper?

cdebru · 28-08-2013 12:43am

Aard wrote: »

I think the essence of bk's point is pertinent in that there are cheaper options that give >1mb of memory.

Cheaper than what? How much is the new higher spec wayfarer?

Victor · 28-08-2013 1:00am

cdebru wrote: »

I wonder where it is being tested?

In one garage on a set number of buses with feedback from drivers to see if the problem is resolved? Or more likely on a machine in an office set up, which in no way replicates the in service conditions.

To date, testing has tended to be first on one route and then on all of Summerhill, then all routes. I imagine they also do desktop and one bus / a few buses testing also.

28-08-2013 8:57am

Usng Leap on a bus is an exact science, as I noticed today. I removed the card after the button was pressed, only to be called back and told that it didn't read. Yet, if I wait until the green light appears I get told to move on or get grunted at. It's really putting me off.

cdebru · 28-08-2013 9:14am

Victor wrote: »

To date, testing has tended to be first on one route and then on all of Summerhill, then all routes. I imagine they also do desktop and one bus / a few buses testing also.

No way was that last update tested in service conditions if it was then the problems would have become apparent straight away. Unless it is testing in name only where they just put it onto some of the fleet don't look for or accept any feedback and proceed to the roll out phase.

dazberry · 28-08-2013 9:43am

Karsini wrote: »

Usng Leap on a bus is an exact science, as I noticed today. I removed the card after the button was pressed, only to be called back and told that it didn't read. Yet, if I wait until the green light appears I get told to move on or get grunted at. It's really putting me off.

There is a trick to it, start moving off while still holding the card on the reader, so by the time the green light comes on, the card is just about to slide off the reader in your hand, your arm is fully outstretched, you get the warm glowing feeling of seeing the green light and the driver sees you progressing. Indeed if you manage it right you might even catch a glimpse of your balance.

One of the drivers yesterday double clicked the button (as per this thread I think the machine was not responding) and gave me a companion ticket too. He told me it was reversed but /sigh/ it wasn't. While its a matter of principle, the cost of going in and getting a refund for this say next Saturday is more than the overcharge so hardly worth it really. Every couple of weeks I seem to encounter some form of overcharge...

D.

bk · 28-08-2013 11:25am

cdebru wrote: »

Yet again, the 40 euro phone has no relationship to a ticket machine, it was imo used for dramatic effect, ie this stuff only costs 40 euro whats the problem? BK has admitted that an android based tablet ticket machine would cost in the region of 1000 euro, since no one knows the cost of wayfarer machine the cost is moot because who knows if 1000 is cheaper?

€1000 is the total cost, not just the cost of the tablets, but also the cost of the ticket printer, validators, mount, installation and all the back end systems.

You can bet that the total cost of all this from wayfarer and the backend systems would also be at least €1000 and likely far more.

Actually one point I just thought of. People are questioning the robustness of the tablet screen due to the driver having to constantly interact with it for each ticket sale.

But this would only happen because of how broken ticketing is on Dublin Bus.

In an ideal world the driver would seldom interact with the ticket machine. In an ideal world we would either have a flat fare or tag-on/tag-off with very high leap and smart card usage and a large price gap between leap and cash fare.

This would mean no interaction with the ticket machine by the driver for the majority of fares, just the odd tourist.

In London just 1% of fares are cash and thus require interaction by the driver with the ticket machine. This would massively reduce any wear and tear on the tablets. It would make physical usage of the tablet far less then used by pilots on aircraft, as approved by the fecking FAA!

cdebru, if you are really so concerned about cold nigh time conditions or theft at night, then there is an easy solution. Have the driver or other staff move the tablets into the office depot when not in service, simples.

AlekSmart · 28-08-2013 11:30am

Karsini wrote: »

Usng Leap on a bus is an exact science, as I noticed today. I removed the card after the button was pressed, only to be called back and told that it didn't read. Yet, if I wait until the green light appears I get told to move on or get grunted at. It's really putting me off.

This particular problem has a stupidly simple main contributory cause....NO Audible Signal of A Transaction......The Button Click sound is not working on the machine.

This is a VERY common issue on the TGX and leads to the huge increase in

??? WTF???:( moments now being described by Leapcard customers.

It's now too late for Patches and Tinkering at the edges,all of which appear intended to protect some IT persons professional reputation.....Fix the problem......NEW MACHINE-NOW.

bk · 28-08-2013 11:30am

dazberry wrote: »

There is a trick to it, start moving off while still holding the card on the reader

The fact that you have to use a "trick" to use leap card shows just how broken leap card and ticketing is on Dublin Bus. Most people just won't accept having to use "tricks" and will eventually just give up on leap.

Leap and ticketing in general is currently badly broken on Dublin Bus and radical changes need to be made to fix it:

- New, more powerful ticket machines, either a tablet based system or a more powerful wayfarer type system.

- Either flat fare or tag-on/tag-off system of Leap usage with no driver interaction.

- High cash flat fare to discourage the use of cash and to simplify and speed up its use.

foggy_lad · 28-08-2013 11:49am

dazberry wrote: »

There is a trick to it, start moving off while still holding the card on the reader, so by the time the green light comes on, the card is just about to slide off the reader in your hand, your arm is fully outstretched, you get the warm glowing feeling of seeing the green light and the driver sees you progressing. Indeed if you manage it right you might even catch a glimpse of your balance.

One of the drivers yesterday double clicked the button (as per this thread I think the machine was not responding) and gave me a companion ticket too. He told me it was reversed but /sigh/ it wasn't. While its a matter of principle, the cost of going in and getting a refund for this say next Saturday is more than the overcharge so hardly worth it really. Every couple of weeks I seem to encounter some form of overcharge...

D.

Tricks aside, there is something of a dirty trick being played when obtaining a refund for being overcharged costs far more than the overcharged amount and dissuades a consumer from seeking a refund!

All refunds should be automatically put on the card when presented at a normal top up location!

If there is a minimum of €5 that can be refunded then that must be the cost to the operator of their mistake!

AlekSmart · 28-08-2013 11:51am

bk wrote: »

The fact that you have to use a "trick" to use leap card shows just how broken leap card and ticketing is on Dublin Bus. Most people just won't accept having to use "tricks" and will eventually just give up on leap.

Leap and ticketing in general is currently badly broken on Dublin Bus and radical changes need to be made to fix it:

- New, more powerful ticket machines, either a tablet based system or a more powerful wayfarer type system.

- Either flat fare or tag-on/tag-off system of Leap usage with no driver interaction.

- High cash flat fare to discourage the use of cash and to simplify and speed up its use.

The problem in addressing these VERY obvious issues bk,is that Dublin Bus,itself,it's Front Line Staff and Customers have absolutely no say in the matter.

What is required (Urgently,IMO) is a TOTAL restructuring of All GDR Public Transport Fare systems....No tinkering,No partial integration...Simply a NEW Region Wide simple fare structure embracing ALL PT modes.

Leapcard makes this possible almost at a Keystroke...the system,the hardware and the willingness are all there,but as yet,not a whiff of comprehension from the NTA (Like it or not,The Dead Hand of the Department of Transport still very much on the tiller).

We constantly read here,and elsewhere,of various posters positive interactions with other European and Worldwide PT systems.

However the common thread which links most,if not all,of these foreign systems is the far higher rate of Public Subvention afforded to them in order to promote the greater-good principle inherent in Widespread Fast,Efficient,Frequent and AFFORDABLE Public Transport.

Current Irish Government policy as enunciated clearly by Minister Varadakar does not accept Government as having any role to play in such a "Socially Efficient" manner as subvention.

Unless there is a sea-change in this attitude then,sadly,PT Fares will continue to rise and studies continue to ponder as to why our mass Public Transport still can't perform.

Cheap Fares+ Quality Service + High Frequency will deliver results.....30 minute headways with €2.80 single fares will always struggle to match the attractivness of a Donkey & Cart.

cdebru · 28-08-2013 12:04pm

bk wrote: »

€1000 is the total cost, not just the cost of the tablets, but also the cost of the ticket printer, validators, mount, installation and all the back end systems.

You can bet that the total cost of all this from wayfarer and the backend systems would also be at least €1000 and likely far more.

Actually one point I just thought of. People are questioning the robustness of the tablet screen due to the driver having to constantly interact with it for each ticket sale.

But this would only happen because of how broken ticketing is on Dublin Bus.

In an ideal world the driver would seldom interact with the ticket machine. In an ideal world we would either have a flat fare or tag-on/tag-off with very high leap and smart card usage and a large price gap between leap and cash fare.

This would mean no interaction with the ticket machine by the driver for the majority of fares, just the odd tourist.

In London just 1% of fares are cash and thus require interaction by the driver with the ticket machine. This would massively reduce any wear and tear on the tablets. It would make physical usage of the tablet far less then used by pilots on aircraft, as approved by the fecking FAA!

cdebru, if you are really so concerned about cold nigh time conditions or theft at night, then there is an easy solution. Have the driver or other staff move the tablets into the office depot when not in service, simples.

So the 1000 euro includes back end as well ? surely that would depend on the size of the operation, a company with 10 or 20 vehicles would pay the same unit price including back end as company with 900 buses seems odd??

Again we have have no idea how much the newer wayfarer machines cost so just throwing out a €1000 figure which we have to take on faith and telling us it is cheaper doesn't really wash. Second even if you are correct and the initial investment in a tablet based system was cheaper, you would have to look at the likely lifetime of both systems to work out which would be more cost effective.

I agree we should be moving to a system that involves less driver interaction and reduces dwell time, my understanding is that DB has previously applied for flat fares but that request was turned down, given that the leap card system is being built for a stage fared system unfortunately it looks like we are stuck with that model for the foreseeable future, with that in mind better to buy a system for the model we have than the one we would like.

Sorry but that is a nonsense idea which would cost the company more money if drivers had to collect, install and remove ticket machines, plus providing overnight secure storage for 100s of tablets.

The theft issue would not just be an overnight issue, buses are parked on street unsecured, a current wayfarer machine can be removed in less than 10 seconds, it never happens because it is useless to anyone else, not true of an off the shelf tablet.

bk · 28-08-2013 12:25pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

What is required (Urgently,IMO) is a TOTAL restructuring of All GDR Public Transport Fare systems....No tinkering,No partial integration...Simply a NEW Region Wide simple fare structure embracing ALL PT modes.

Agreed, which is why I've long said a tag-on/tag-off per km system like you ssee in Amsterdam is by far the ideal system. Offering the greatest degree of flexibility, simplicity and integration.

Yes, tag-off isn't ideal on Dublin Bus with it's single door operations, but I believe it would still be faster then the current driver interaction system.

It is a pity that leap validators weren't included in the RTPI poles, they could have been used for off bus tag-off.

cdebru there are strong rumours of a big overhaul of the DB ticketing systems next year, so we might end up with the low driver interaction very soon.

cdebru · 28-08-2013 12:34pm

bk wrote: »

Agreed, which is why I've long said a tag-on/tag-off per km system like you ssee in Amsterdam is by far the ideal system. Offering the greatest degree of flexibility, simplicity and integration.

Yes, tag-off isn't ideal on Dublin Bus with it's single door operations, but I believe it would still be faster then the current driver interaction system.

It is a pity that leap validators weren't included in the RTPI poles, they could have been used for off bus tag-off.

cdebru there are strong rumours of a big overhaul of the DB ticketing systems next year, so we might end up with the low driver interaction very soon.

Flat fare city wide €2 for leap card €3 for cash kids fares half that no need for tag off.

A simpler ticket machine no stages, no confusion less fare evasion, a real incentive to move to leap card, shorter dwell times.

Dravokivich · 28-08-2013 12:41pm

bk wrote: »

Agreed, which is why I've long said a tag-on/tag-off per km system like you ssee in Amsterdam is by far the ideal system. Offering the greatest degree of flexibility, simplicity and integration.

Yes, tag-off isn't ideal on Dublin Bus with it's single door operations, but I believe it would still be faster then the current driver interaction system.

It is a pity that leap validators weren't included in the RTPI poles, they could have been used for off bus tag-off.

cdebru there are strong rumours of a big overhaul of the DB ticketing systems next year, so we might end up with the low driver interaction very soon.

Wouldn't be too useful for stops which serve multiple routes, unless it has a way of connecting to the bus next to it, in order to know how much to credit back to the user.

It'll also mean all stops will have to have RTPI and it doesn't appear to be something DB are intending on rolling out throughout all the stops.

"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

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