Martin McGuinness to be named as Sinn Féins candidate for the Presidential Election?

RandomName2 · 17-09-2011 7:19am

briankeating wrote: »

It is completely irrelevant where they live. There are no levels or types of citizenship, you're either a citizen of the Republic of Ireland and thereby entitled to hold an Irish passport or not. It's black and white as I said before. I have no idea where this abstract concept of an "Irish nation" you keep using comes from.

Honestly, I think this is the case. It really couldn't be simpler for the reasons I outline above. An Irish citizen is an Irish citizen.

It is at Ireland's discretion who it gives citizenship to. Afaik it could grant citizenship to anyone who holds a Spanish passport for instance. Citizenship used to be granted automatically to any child that was born on the island of Ireland (which has since changed). Ireland offers citizenship to citizens of Northern Ireland. I presume that that privilege could theoretically be rescinded by the Irish government (it would be quite difficult if it is included in peace treaties, which it likely is). Nothing terribly mythical or profound in any of that.

Baggie · 17-09-2011 8:58am

I was going to vote for Higgins but McGuinness gets it now.

thebman · 17-09-2011 10:29am

Foghladh wrote: »

I'm not sure that his running as an independent would really matter, if that's what he's doing. It'd be like Bertie running and being facillitated by FF. Everyone would still link him to his party. I'd have an issue with him pushing the agenda of voting rights for NI citizens to be honest even in an apolitical way. Because frankly it wouldn't be apolitical. The only winners from that scenario are Sinn Féin. I don't know the percentages of unionists who have subscribed to Irish citizenship but I can't imagine it's very high. Even were voting privilages given to all in the north, regardless of citizenship, I can't see those of the unionist community turning out to vote in a presidential election for the Republic. So essentially we'd have a scenario where a block of republican voters from the north have entitlement to vote in the Republic and who are the only party they have exposure to?

Not a Republican but you can't say they'll all vote Sinn Fein is a reason not to do it. Either you are for them having the vote on its merits or your not.

I personally haven't formed as position on the issue yet but leaning on let them vote and I've personally never voted SF in my life (will probably throw them a preference in the next gerneral election though TBH given the uselessness of every other party in the state to bring political reform because it doesn't suit them once in power).

Won't be giving MM a vote though if he does run for president as I don't think he is as good a candidate as Higgins.

anymore · 17-09-2011 11:42am

briankeating wrote: »

What is the "Irish nation"? The country we live in is the Republic of Ireland. The countries name is Ireland and it is a Republic. Just like France, but no one bothers to call it the Republic of France because there's no partitioned "Northern France" to confuse the issue.

If you have the right to Irish citizenship, you have the right to (among other things) live, work, vote and stand for election in the Republic of Ireland.

It is completely irrelevant where they live. There are no levels or types of citizenship, you're either a citizen of the Republic of Ireland and thereby entitled to hold an Irish passport or not. It's black and white as I said before. I have no idea where this abstract concept of an "Irish nation" you keep using comes from.

Honestly, I think this is the case. It really couldn't be simpler for the reasons I outline above. An Irish citizen is an Irish citizen.

The first three words of the Irish Constitution, which is the legal bedrock of the Irish Republic, are " The Irish nation '. This is the beginning of Artile 1. Article 2 states that it is the entitlement and birthright of everyone born on the island of Ireland to be part of the Irish Nation.
So therefore the idea of there being such an entity as ' The Irish Nation' is not just some vague wishy washy abstract notion, but it is a legal one and one which our courts are legally bound to recognise. It lies at the very heart of our legal system. Article 3 also makes clear that the Republic of the 26 counties is idealy only a temporary arrangement pending the peaceful formation of a united Ireland.

Liam Byrne · 17-09-2011 11:57am

anymore wrote: »

Article 3 also makes clear that the Republic of the 26 counties is idealy only a temporary arrangement pending the peaceful formation of a united Ireland.

Technically marriage is only a temporary arrangement too, since we'll all be dead relatively soon, but the phrase isn't emphasised - even used - in polite company.

anymore · 17-09-2011 12:03pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Technically marriage is only a temporary arrangement too, since we'll all be dead relatively soon, but the phrase isn't emphasised - even used - in polite company.

Some of us didnt have to wait for the Grim Reaper to have our marriages disolved :eek:

Liam Byrne · 17-09-2011 12:09pm

anymore wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Technically marriage is only a temporary arrangement too, since we'll all be dead relatively soon, but the phrase isn't emphasised - even used - in polite company.

Some of us didnt have to wait for the Grim Reaper to have our marriages disolved :eek:

Sorry to hear that, but my point is that even the "permanent" marriages are only going to be a max of 50 - 60 years, and yet no-one refers to them as "temporary", because it's insulting.

ardmacha · 17-09-2011 12:13pm

ninjasurfer1 wrote:

My query was around the potential conflicts of being part of the Political Irish state with all of its own laws and also falling within the remit of the UK and its own laws.
Simple questions like, which countries laws take priority, if he's successful, is he bound by irish law only for the duration, etc.

Stop trying to stir things. McAleese has been in the job for 14 years and none of these "conflicts" have been identified.

briankeating wrote:

I have no idea where this abstract concept of an "Irish nation" you keep using comes from.

Perhaps, if you are to participate in the politics forum some acquaintance with the constitution would be appropriate?

anymore · 17-09-2011 12:26pm

ardmacha wrote: »

Stop trying to stir things. McAleese has been in the job for 14 years and none of these "conflicts" have been identified.

Perhaps, if you are to participate in the politics forum some acquaintance with the constitution would be appropriate?

Just to put on record, a copy of the Constitution only costs about 3 EURO and it is written in fairly easy english, so most homes should keep a copy.

anymore · 17-09-2011 12:28pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Sorry to hear that, but my point is that even the "permanent" marriages are only going to be a max of 50 - 60 years, and yet no-one refers to them as "temporary", because it's insulting.

I take your point but marriage contracts dont contain the firm hope that something better will come along !:)

Wolfe Tone · 17-09-2011 1:11pm

K-9 wrote: »

We all know pragmatism works. A SF President welcoming the Queen?

It'll be interesting how he answers that question.

He must have heard you!

Martin McGuinness has said he will be prepared to meet all heads of state "without exception", if he is elected President of Ireland.

Sinn Fein announced on Friday that it would be supporting Northern Ireland's Deputy First Minister for the role.

Returning from a trip to the US on Saturday, Mr McGuinness said he hoped his candidacy would not be divisive.

When the Queen made her first visit to Ireland in May, Sinn Fein did not take part in any of the main ceremonies.

Speaking to the BBC on Saturday morning, Mr McGuinness said he had given careful consideration to his decision to stand.

He was asked how he would handle another Royal visit to Ireland, given his party's position on the Queen's historic trip.

He said: "If the people of Ireland decide that I should be their president, my responsibilites and duties would be to meet heads of state from all over the world and to do that without exception and that would be my position."

Judgement

He added that he considered himself to be part of a new atmosphere in the country and that Irish people had "more sense" than to be swayed by hostile media.

"The people of Ireland have watched the political progress that Gerry Adams and I have been at the heart of for many years," Mr McGuinness said.

"I think I would prefer their judgement than the judgement of media who are looking for spectacular headlines."

A former IRA commander, Mr McGuinness has been Deputy First Minister since 2007.

While he is likely to face significant scrutiny of his paramilitary past, his party colleagues believe his high profile during the peace process should help build the Sinn Fein vote.

Earlier this year, the party won 14 seats in the Irish parliament, Dail Eireann - its strongest performance in the modern era.

Fine Gael's Gay Mitchell, Special Olympics boss Mary Davis, businessman Sean Gallagher and Labour's Michael D Higgins of Labour, have already put their names forward for the October election.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14958873

Liam Byrne · 17-09-2011 1:14pm

anymore wrote: »

I take your point but marriage contracts dont contain the firm hope that something better will come along !:)

"Til death do us part"

And given the way the quality of this life is being eroded by politicians, vested interests and criminals, that's debatable - although probably in the Spirituality forum rather than here

niallers1 · 17-09-2011 1:14pm

jbkenn wrote: »

Simple really, for €325,000 a year salary, free board and lodgings, a company car, a gold plated pension for the rest of his natural, and a free funeral when he pops his clogs, he would do exactly what he was told to do.

She won't be back anyway but if she did come back he would welcome her- one figure head to another..
As equals.

He will be working for the average industrial wage.. a fraction of what the other candidates will work for

GSF · 17-09-2011 1:17pm

Hes got Michael Healy Rae's support to sign his papers. Wonder what they offered him to agree to that?

Brian? · 17-09-2011 2:29pm

anymore wrote: »

briankeating wrote: »

What is the "Irish nation"? The country we live in is the Republic of Ireland. The countries name is Ireland and it is a Republic. Just like France, but no one bothers to call it the Republic of France because there's no partitioned "Northern France" to confuse the issue.

If you have the right to Irish citizenship, you have the right to (among other things) live, work, vote and stand for election in the Republic of Ireland.

It is completely irrelevant where they live. There are no levels or types of citizenship, you're either a citizen of the Republic of Ireland and thereby entitled to hold an Irish passport or not. It's black and white as I said before. I have no idea where this abstract concept of an "Irish nation" you keep using comes from.

Honestly, I think this is the case. It really couldn't be simpler for the reasons I outline above. An Irish citizen is an Irish citizen.

The first three words of the Irish Constitution, which is the legal bedrock of the Irish Republic, are " The Irish nation '. This is the beginning of Artile 1. Article 2 states that it is the entitlement and birthright of everyone born on the island of Ireland to be part of the Irish Nation.
So therefore the idea of there being such an entity as ' The Irish Nation' is not just some vague wishy washy abstract notion, but it is a legal one and one which our courts are legally bound to recognise. It lies at the very heart of our legal system. Article 3 also makes clear that the Republic of the 26 counties is idealy only a temporary arrangement pending the peaceful formation of a united Ireland.

I know exactly what the constitution says. You have completely missed my point here. He was trying to draw a distinction between the "Irish Nation" and the Republic of Ireland. No such distinction exists.

The way he wa. Referring to the "Irish Nation" was the abstract concept. Some sort of nation that existed separate to the Republic of Ireland where you be a citizen of this nation but not have the full rights of a citizen of the Republic.

Brian? · 17-09-2011 2:32pm

ardmacha wrote: »

ninjasurfer1 wrote:

My query was around the potential conflicts of being part of the Political Irish state with all of its own laws and also falling within the remit of the UK and its own laws.
Simple questions like, which countries laws take priority, if he's successful, is he bound by irish law only for the duration, etc.

Stop trying to stir things. McAleese has been in the job for 14 years and none of these "conflicts" have been identified.

briankeating wrote:

I have no idea where this abstract concept of an "Irish nation" you keep using comes from.

Perhaps, if you are to participate in the politics forum some acquaintance with the constitution would be appropriate?

Perhaps you could take a break from this kind of nonsense and actually understand what I was trying to say instead of trying to make a cheap point.

Re: "Irish" nation, see my above response.

PeterIanStaker · 17-09-2011 4:23pm

GSF wrote: »

Hes got Michael Healy Rae's support to sign his papers. Wonder what they offered him to agree to that?

A phone - in vote?

jbkenn · 17-09-2011 4:29pm

niallers1 wrote: »

He will be working for the average industrial wage.. a fraction of what the other candidates will work for

No he won't, he will be paid the full salary.

RandomName2 · 17-09-2011 5:12pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

He must have heard you!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14958873

But would having LdnDerry's IRA's no2. as an official representative for Ireland be.. putting our best foot forward? Though he acceded to the Peace Process and tried to bring dissident terrorists into line since (both of which were focused almost exclusively on Northern Ireland, with Ireland naturally having only a walk-on part) is it not an incongruous CV for the particular office in question?

niallers1 · 17-09-2011 5:20pm

jbkenn wrote: »

No he won't, he will be paid the full salary.

It is reported that he will take the average industrial wage as a salary.

thebman · 17-09-2011 6:15pm

niallers1 wrote: »

It is reported that he will take the average industrial wage as a salary.

The rest goes to fund the party.

Sunnyisland · 17-09-2011 6:18pm

1, At first it was David norris for me, but after the controversy surrounding his letter and interview with HLB,That was him out.

2,I was leaning towards M d higgins as he certainly has some appeal to me,But i don't think he as the charisma to be representing Ireland on the world stage.

3,And along came Martin mc guinness,He certainly has a lot of baggage with him,but he has hugely moved forward in his thinking and shown that he can work with even his most vocal critics and also imo shown by his participation in the NI parliament that he has the charisma and knowledge to be a good statesman.So MMG is getting the number 1 from me.

Liam Byrne · 17-09-2011 6:38pm

thebman wrote: »

niallers1 wrote: »

It is reported that he will take the average industrial wage as a salary.

The rest goes to fund the party.

I doubt - and hope - that this is not permitted. The Presidency is meant to be completely apolitical.

sparkling sea · 17-09-2011 6:42pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I doubt - and hope - that this is not permitted. The Presidency is meant to be completely apolitical.

Seriously now this is Martin McGuiness and Sinn Fein your talking about - moot point anyway, he'll never be elected as President of the Republic:D

blahfckingblah · 17-09-2011 6:46pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I doubt - and hope - that this is not permitted. The Presidency is meant to be completely apolitical.

well surely he can accept the full wage and then "donate" it to the party? It highlights the stupidity the wage the president gets - if he can happily be president for a wage 10% of what he is entitled to then thats a sure sign he is entitled to too much. I love how it annoys people what he does with the money though, its almost as good as how it annoys people that a genuine republican has a real chance of being our next president. Cue the politically backed smear campaigns like norrises first campaign.

Wolfe Tone · 17-09-2011 6:52pm

Well at least MMG is not in it for the cash, or the pensions. No other candidate is willing to take that much of a pay cut.

Wolfe Tone · 17-09-2011 7:07pm

Theres an interview with the man himself.

I think he makes a great point about his experience with meeting leaders all over world.

Delancey · 17-09-2011 7:16pm

Without a doubt he has certainly shaken up what was going to be a pretty lifeless and insipid election.
His IRA past is of little concern to me , I would however be keen to get some assurances from him that meeting and greeting members of the the British Royal Family , attending commemoration services for Irish members of the British Forces , etc , will not be an issue.

I would think that donating the bulk of his presidential salary to Sinn Fein ( if elected ) completely undermines the convention of the President being above party politics.

Wolfe Tone · 17-09-2011 7:18pm

Delancey wrote: »

Without a doubt he has certainly shaken up what was going to be a pretty lifeless and insipid election.
His IRA past is of little concern to me , I would however be keen to get some assurances from him that meeting and greeting members of the the British Royal Family , attending commemoration services for Irish members of the British Forces , etc , will not be an issue.

I would think that donating the bulk of his presidential salary to Sinn Fein ( if elected ) completely undermines the convention of the President being above party politics.

I posted a BBC article earlier, he has said he would have no problem greeting the British Queen.

Liam Byrne · 17-09-2011 7:19pm

blahfckingblah wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I doubt - and hope - that this is not permitted. The Presidency is meant to be completely apolitical.

well surely he can accept the full wage and then "donate" it to the party? It highlights the stupidity the wage the president gets - if he can happily be president for a wage 10% of what he is entitled to then thats a sure sign he is entitled to too much. I love how it annoys people what he does with the money though, its almost as good as how it annoys people that a genuine republican has a real chance of being our next president. Cue the politically backed smear campaigns like norrises first campaign.

Why is he a "genuine" republican ? Because he's been involved in the violence and bombing ?

Anyone who is OK with orchestrating the murder of innocent Irishmen is not a "republican".

This farce of smearing and writing off valid objections as a "smear campaign" was tiresome when Norris apologists spouted it, and it's still tiresome.

That said, at least McGuinness donating €300,000 to the party might prevent their members engaging in "fundraising" activities.

Martin McGuinness to be named as Sinn Féins candidate for the Presidential Election?

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